Lee, eternity to my mind is no imagination but a fact. This universe came to be and will disintegrate but that is not the end of Creation , there have to be other universes in parallel and there is a continuity in Creation-- I mean that no matter how many universes disintegrate there are still other universes.God is incomplete without Creation and so the concept of eternity is valid and a " fact ".
On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 5:32 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > Hey OM. > > I guess what we are talking about are forces. I see that perhaps you > do not count time a s force, or that perhaps our understanding of what > time is must be constrained by the type of being we are. > > Yes I agree that the reality maynot be wholey how we percive it to be, > as you know this has been my stance for a long while now. > > Back to forces though. We still don't know how gravity works, but we > are sure that such a thing exists, we see it's effects all around us > and can apply sciences to measure it. Like time we can see the > effects of it. Now I'll not discount the idea that the effects of > time may be down to something else entirly. > > The thing with imagining enternity or existing within it, is that it > is just imaginagtion isn't it. I can also imagine that I'll a tall > man with broad shoulders, but the reality of the situation is I am > not. > > On May 4, 10:34 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: >> Lee, I sense that what we perceive as being 'external' - energy and >> movement - is that. However, beyond this, our notions of what things >> are...even the letters and associated words for SETI... only exist in >> thought...no where else. >> >> As an aside, for those who may have missed it, SETI has been defunded. >> >> And, no, I didn't miss your caveat. I just disagree and suspect that >> having thought about what one thinks is real, which does include the >> concept of time, all one's lifetime...the notion of time becomes so >> ingrained in one's world view that it is assumed to be an actual thing >> rather than merely a thought. >> >> Yes, when one *thinks* about such things, they appear to be real. The >> operative words here are "appears to be". As a mental exercise Lee, >> I'll ask you to do your very best to imagine existing in >> eternity...that which has no beginning and no end. >> >> Got the vision?.....from this perspective (the actual 'reality'), time >> just is meaningless... especially if one also imagines no perceiver(s) >> involved anywhere at all. >> >> On the other hand, I do know that there is life and that we, as human >> beings do think and project our understandings upon the fabric of what >> we project as being 'external' to ourselves. I don't deny this...it is >> obvious that we do. It's just that what we project comes from mind and >> not from whatever is actually there. What is actually there is not >> what we perceives as time...it isn't color (except clear light as TTS >> notes...something I've been contemplating for years now...something >> that to the rational/thinking mind just can't be grasped)...it isn't >> SETI...it isn't shape...it isn't anything that human senses perceive >> and then apply some sort of belief about what is being >> perceived...based upon previously attached beliefs. We don't in our >> everyday mode perceive reality as it actually is. We do use >> conventions mind agrees upon...for practicality's sake...its just that >> in any ultimate sense, these conventions are nothing more than >> that...they are not what is actually there. Remove the observer (and >> associated senses) and what exists? Get it? No thinking...no >> thoughts...no concepts...no words...no notions of reality.... >> >> No, this isn't the conventional approach to things ontological nor >> epistemological....yet, the exercise can be of enormous value in my >> experience. No, I'm not attempting to impose a belief system upon you >> or anyone else...in fact, it is almost like a diminution of belief if >> anything at all! >> >> So, yes, how does one think about not thinking!!! >> >> Well...we have gone down this road quite often Lee...and you stop >> after only a couple of paces which is fine. >> >> For me, I hunger to know beyond my own set of beliefs...which are >> almost all things that I've attached to long ago and were formed based >> upon words...and, not having created those words...there is little >> that I actually know associated with these terms fed to me by others. >> >> To do this search, deconstruction [of beliefs] seems to be one method. >> It isn't a road often traveled nor does it seem to be for everyone. So >> be it! >> >> On May 4, 1:47 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Hey Om, >> >> > Don't be shocked mate you might have missed this bit: >> >> > ' I must though disagree with you about concepts not existing without >> > somebody to concive of them. Sure I could probably think of a concept >> > or two where this is applicable, time though is not one of them.' >> >> > I like you exanples OM, but we know in a scientific way what colours >> > are, and yes without the eyes to sense them, they still exist. The >> > same with sound waves, yes of course with out the ears to hear and the >> > brain to make sense of them, we can ask do they really exist, but the >> > answer must be yes. >> >> > Think of it like this. SETI have been listening to radio waves from >> > space for many years now, prior to SETI being setup, where these radio >> > signals simply not there? Yes of course they where, we just didn't >> > have the now how to listen to them. >> >> > There is a valid reason why we call somethings inventions and others >> > discoverys. >> >> > I'm trying hard to Grok yoru meaning but you know that old fashioned >> > reasoning keeps interfearing. >> >> > On May 4, 5:43 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > “…Naaaa I do not think that is what you are saying. “ – Lee >> >> > > Lee, in many ways, it is exactly what I’m saying. >> >> > > First, a few examples: Color – we perceive color(s)…and different >> > > people perceive colors differently for one another too. And I’m not >> > > even thinking about the color blind nor the totally blind here. With >> > > no human brain, what we know as color just will not exist. There may >> > > be some sort of vibration/movement in the universe but there will be >> > > no color because it takes a human being to see them. Please don’t add >> > > other life forms to the equation, the principle is the same. No >> > > perceiver, no color. >> >> > > That is only one thing. How about country music? Again, while there >> > > may be vibrations/movement, without a person to ‘translate’ these >> > > vibrations into what we call country music, there just isn’t any such >> > > thing. It is a concept (country music) and doesn’t exist without mind. >> >> > > I really was shocked when you said that you disagreed with me about >> > > concepts not existing without a perceiver/thinker! Just how could say >> > > a concept of ‘freedom’ exist without mind? It just doesn’t. >> >> > > Adding a little more, when you bring in ‘labels’, yes, all concepts/ >> > > words (labels) are subjective and without mind they just don’t exist. >> > > Even when there *is* mind things like say the earth can be >> > > deconstructed into atoms and/or molecules etc…stuff that is not what >> > > we think about as being the planet. I haven’t gone into this very >> > > deeply but hope you grok. >> >> > > On May 3, 9:36 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> > > wrote: >> >> > > > Hahahah OM old chap, you and I have been round and around on manny >> > > > matters, as you say though this is just fine. >> >> > > > Yes of course the perception of time is a construct of human thought, >> > > > it is as I say the way we measure decay. >> >> > > > Yes of course if we do not project time upon the eternity then time >> > > > cease to have any meaning. >> >> > > > Yet all that we know is contained in the universe and it is clear that >> > > > within this universe time exists independant of human thought. >> >> > > > All that is physical, all that is matter is subject to decay at a >> > > > certian rate, this is time working. >> >> > > > Do you belive then that whatever is apart from the universe does not >> > > > come under the juristriction of time? Are you saying that this thing >> > > > we call God in some places is not subject to time, and that this is >> > > > also true of anything not composed of matter but spirit instead? If >> > > > so then obviously I agree. >> >> > > > I must though disagree with you about concepts not existing without >> > > > somebody to concive of them. Sure I could probably think of a concept >> > > > or two where this is applicable, time though isnot one of them. >> >> > > > Before the Earth cooled down enough for life to start here a period of >> > > > time had passed, and although nobody was there to measure how much >> > > > time had passed, we can now do just that. >> >> > > > Time then like light, exists independant of a mind to think of it. In >> > > > fact are not all concepts our striving to understand what it is we >> > > > sense around us? There must then be forces to sense for us tho strive >> > > > to understand. Language is just labels we attach to things to enable >> > > > us to communicate about them. Are you really saying these things >> > > > would not exist if there where no mouths to utter the labels? Naaaa I >> > > > do not think that is what you are saying. >> >> > > > On May 3, 2:09 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > > > Lee, we've gone round and round about 'no-time' on more than one >> > > > > occasion and in different forums. >> >> > > > > So, I have little hope in making this notion acceptable to you which >> > > > > is just fine. >> >> > > > > This can be approached on many levels. One is when one is talking >> > > > > about how long things exist, yes, all things have a beginning and an >> > > > > end. *Things*...such as planets, people, thoughts etc. >> >> > > > > Yet, if for just a moment we don't project this temporariness upon >> > > > > the >> > > > > eternity which is obvious to many, when one is in eternity, time just >> > > > > doesn't have any meaning at all. No beginning - No end. >> >> > > > > On a different level...at least a little different...you suggest that >> > > > > time will exist w/o people. This too, on one level is correct; >> > > > > however, I suggest that the very idea of time is found only within >> > > > > human thinking. No humans, no concept of time. Yes, one can *guess* >> > > > > that things will continue to come and go...but the very idea of >> > > > > 'time' >> > > > > just doesn't exist without a mind. The same is true for all other >> > > > > ideas: planet, chin, hairs (gray or black), time, universe, mirror, >> > > > > science, years, numbers, people...even "Lee" is but a concept thought >> > > > > about. No thinking, no "Lee" (or any of the other things listed). >> >> > > > > On May 3, 5:56 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> > > > > wrote: >> >> > > > > > That's along the lines of the questions asked myself before >> > > > > > deciding >> > > > > > on my stance. >> >> > > > > > Time would go by if there was nobody there to percive it doing so. >> > > > > > Indeed science would have the time pass since our universe started >> > > > > > as >> > > > > > several billion years. >> >> > > > > > When I look in the mirror I can see that time has passed, in the >> > > > > > new >> > > > > > lines in my face, in the ever increasing grey hairs on my head and >> > > > > > on >> >> ... >> >> read more »- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text -
