Well yes sir faith a little anylicitcal thought. None of my belifes are so solid that they are unchangeable though.
I have spent a great deal of time over the years looking at the seemingly contradictions inherant in religous dogma, my belifes are part of my conclusions. On May 5, 11:13 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > Lee , your belief is founded in faith and hence is unshakeable. > > On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:45 PM, [email protected] > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Yes indeed RP we have been over these ground before. > > > That is not my belife I'm afraid. > > > When we look at religion as a whole, and by that I mean if we look at > > the dogma of as many religions as we can, it seems clear to me that > > God says 'Come to me, choose me'. Both of which hold conertations of > > free will or freedom of choice. > > > If we have free will, then I must ask who's will is it that is free, > > who has the power of choice? > > > The answer must be that each of us has this power, that you have a > > Self that is differant from my Self, which in turn is differant from > > God's Self. > > > Yes I agree that there exists an illusion of seperation from God, but > > before that seems to contradict what I say above let me explain > > further. > > > A tree is a whole being, yet a leaf and a bud are not the same, part > > ofthe same yes, but differant form each other. Imagine then God being > > the whole tree and all else being part of the tree. Further imagine > > that God has granted each leaf of the tree freedom of choice. To drop > > in the autum or to cling to God's branches. > > > Getting back to time for a sec, and retaining the tree anology. > > Before the tree exisited there existed only the idea of the tree, or > > God in spirit. For whatever reasons God thought, let the be all kinds > > of matter, let matter experiance itself, and lo from just the idea or > > spirit of God, God manifested itself as matter, matter made from > > spirt. > > > On May 4, 6:04 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Lee , the Self of every individuality is One and He continues in > >> eternity. Eternity is because of the Self and not vice versa. If you > >> remove the illusory coatings of individualities the one Self shines > >> through and whether I know it or not I will continue in eternity. I am > >> the Self and this RP Singh or Lee or Orn are just illusions because > >> these are but identities whereas The real I or Self is unborn , > >> primeaval and indestructible. The self-sense has a beginning and an > >> end , the Self or Atman or God is the core of all individualities and > >> is One and is Eternal. > > >> On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 8:42 PM, [email protected] > > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > Indeed RP, as we know that is part of my belife structure also. Yet > >> > unless you have reached God in what ever manory your faith defines for > >> > you, can it be said that you, mean you RP Singh of here and now, will > >> > continue into eternity? > > >> > On May 4, 3:22 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Lee, eternity to my mind is no imagination but a fact. This universe > >> >> came to be and will disintegrate but that is not the end of Creation , > >> >> there have to be other universes in parallel and there is a continuity > >> >> in Creation-- I mean that no matter how many universes disintegrate > >> >> there are still other universes.God is incomplete without Creation and > >> >> so the concept of eternity is valid and a " fact ". > > >> >> On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 5:32 PM, [email protected] > > >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > Hey OM. > > >> >> > I guess what we are talking about are forces. I see that perhaps you > >> >> > do not count time a s force, or that perhaps our understanding of what > >> >> > time is must be constrained by the type of being we are. > > >> >> > Yes I agree that the reality maynot be wholey how we percive it to be, > >> >> > as you know this has been my stance for a long while now. > > >> >> > Back to forces though. We still don't know how gravity works, but we > >> >> > are sure that such a thing exists, we see it's effects all around us > >> >> > and can apply sciences to measure it. Like time we can see the > >> >> > effects of it. Now I'll not discount the idea that the effects of > >> >> > time may be down to something else entirly. > > >> >> > The thing with imagining enternity or existing within it, is that it > >> >> > is just imaginagtion isn't it. I can also imagine that I'll a tall > >> >> > man with broad shoulders, but the reality of the situation is I am > >> >> > not. > > >> >> > On May 4, 10:34 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> Lee, I sense that what we perceive as being 'external' - energy and > >> >> >> movement - is that. However, beyond this, our notions of what things > >> >> >> are...even the letters and associated words for SETI... only exist in > >> >> >> thought...no where else. > > >> >> >> As an aside, for those who may have missed it, SETI has been > >> >> >> defunded. > > >> >> >> And, no, I didn't miss your caveat. I just disagree and suspect that > >> >> >> having thought about what one thinks is real, which does include the > >> >> >> concept of time, all one's lifetime...the notion of time becomes so > >> >> >> ingrained in one's world view that it is assumed to be an actual > >> >> >> thing > >> >> >> rather than merely a thought. > > >> >> >> Yes, when one *thinks* about such things, they appear to be real. The > >> >> >> operative words here are "appears to be". As a mental exercise Lee, > >> >> >> I'll ask you to do your very best to imagine existing in > >> >> >> eternity...that which has no beginning and no end. > > >> >> >> Got the vision?.....from this perspective (the actual 'reality'), > >> >> >> time > >> >> >> just is meaningless... especially if one also imagines no > >> >> >> perceiver(s) > >> >> >> involved anywhere at all. > > >> >> >> On the other hand, I do know that there is life and that we, as human > >> >> >> beings do think and project our understandings upon the fabric of > >> >> >> what > >> >> >> we project as being 'external' to ourselves. I don't deny this...it > >> >> >> is > >> >> >> obvious that we do. It's just that what we project comes from mind > >> >> >> and > >> >> >> not from whatever is actually there. What is actually there is not > >> >> >> what we perceives as time...it isn't color (except clear light as TTS > >> >> >> notes...something I've been contemplating for years now...something > >> >> >> that to the rational/thinking mind just can't be grasped)...it isn't > >> >> >> SETI...it isn't shape...it isn't anything that human senses perceive > >> >> >> and then apply some sort of belief about what is being > >> >> >> perceived...based upon previously attached beliefs. We don't in our > >> >> >> everyday mode perceive reality as it actually is. We do use > >> >> >> conventions mind agrees upon...for practicality's sake...its just > >> >> >> that > >> >> >> in any ultimate sense, these conventions are nothing more than > >> >> >> that...they are not what is actually there. Remove the observer (and > >> >> >> associated senses) and what exists? Get it? No thinking...no > >> >> >> thoughts...no concepts...no words...no notions of reality.... > > >> >> >> No, this isn't the conventional approach to things ontological nor > >> >> >> epistemological....yet, the exercise can be of enormous value in my > >> >> >> experience. No, I'm not attempting to impose a belief system upon you > >> >> >> or anyone else...in fact, it is almost like a diminution of belief if > >> >> >> anything at all! > > >> >> >> So, yes, how does one think about not thinking!!! > > >> >> >> Well...we have gone down this road quite often Lee...and you stop > >> >> >> after only a couple of paces which is fine. > > >> >> >> For me, I hunger to know beyond my own set of beliefs...which are > >> >> >> almost all things that I've attached to long ago and were formed > >> >> >> based > >> >> >> upon words...and, not having created those words...there is little > >> >> >> that I actually know associated with these terms fed to me by others. > > >> >> >> To do this search, deconstruction [of beliefs] seems to be one > >> >> >> method. > >> >> >> It isn't a road often traveled nor does it seem to be for everyone. > >> >> >> So > >> >> >> be it! > > >> >> >> On May 4, 1:47 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > >> >> >> wrote: > > >> >> >> > Hey Om, > > >> >> >> > Don't be shocked mate you might have missed this bit: > > >> >> >> > ' I must though disagree with you about concepts not existing > >> >> >> > without > >> >> >> > somebody to concive of them. Sure I could probably think of a > >> >> >> > concept > >> >> >> > or two where this is applicable, time though is not one of them.' > > >> >> >> > I like you exanples OM, but we know in a scientific way what > >> >> >> > colours > >> >> >> > are, and yes without the eyes to sense them, they still exist. The > >> >> >> > same with sound waves, yes of course with out the ears to hear and > >> >> >> > the > >> >> >> > brain to make sense of them, we can ask do they really exist, but > >> >> >> > the > >> >> >> > answer must be yes. > > >> >> >> > Think of it like this. SETI have been listening to radio waves > >> >> >> > from > >> >> >> > space for many years now, prior to SETI being setup, where these > >> >> >> > radio > >> >> >> > signals simply not there? Yes of course they where, we just didn't > >> >> >> > have the now how to listen to them. > > >> >> >> > There is a valid reason why we call somethings inventions and > >> >> >> > others > >> >> >> > discoverys. > > >> >> >> > I'm trying hard to Grok yoru meaning but you know that old > >> >> >> > fashioned > >> >> >> > reasoning keeps interfearing. > > >> >> >> > On May 4, 5:43 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > >> >> >> > wrote: > > >> >> >> > > “…Naaaa I do not think that is what you are saying. “ – Lee > > >> >> >> > > Lee, in many ways, it is exactly what I’m saying. > > >> >> >> > > First, a few examples: Color – we perceive color(s)…and different > >> >> >> > > people perceive colors differently for one another too. And I’m > >> >> >> > > not > >> >> >> > > even thinking about the color blind nor the totally blind here. > >> >> >> > > With > >> >> >> > > no human brain, what we know as color just will not exist. There > >> >> >> > > may > >> >> >> > > be some sort of vibration/movement in the universe but there > >> >> >> > > will be > >> >> >> > > no color because it takes a human being to see them. Please > >> >> >> > > don’t add > >> >> >> > > other life forms to the equation, the principle is the same. No > >> >> >> > > perceiver, no color. > > >> >> >> > > That is only > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
