Lee , your belief is founded in faith and hence is unshakeable.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:45 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes indeed RP we have been over these ground before. > > That is not my belife I'm afraid. > > When we look at religion as a whole, and by that I mean if we look at > the dogma of as many religions as we can, it seems clear to me that > God says 'Come to me, choose me'. Both of which hold conertations of > free will or freedom of choice. > > If we have free will, then I must ask who's will is it that is free, > who has the power of choice? > > The answer must be that each of us has this power, that you have a > Self that is differant from my Self, which in turn is differant from > God's Self. > > Yes I agree that there exists an illusion of seperation from God, but > before that seems to contradict what I say above let me explain > further. > > A tree is a whole being, yet a leaf and a bud are not the same, part > ofthe same yes, but differant form each other. Imagine then God being > the whole tree and all else being part of the tree. Further imagine > that God has granted each leaf of the tree freedom of choice. To drop > in the autum or to cling to God's branches. > > Getting back to time for a sec, and retaining the tree anology. > Before the tree exisited there existed only the idea of the tree, or > God in spirit. For whatever reasons God thought, let the be all kinds > of matter, let matter experiance itself, and lo from just the idea or > spirit of God, God manifested itself as matter, matter made from > spirt. > > On May 4, 6:04 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> Lee , the Self of every individuality is One and He continues in >> eternity. Eternity is because of the Self and not vice versa. If you >> remove the illusory coatings of individualities the one Self shines >> through and whether I know it or not I will continue in eternity. I am >> the Self and this RP Singh or Lee or Orn are just illusions because >> these are but identities whereas The real I or Self is unborn , >> primeaval and indestructible. The self-sense has a beginning and an >> end , the Self or Atman or God is the core of all individualities and >> is One and is Eternal. >> >> On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 8:42 PM, [email protected] >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Indeed RP, as we know that is part of my belife structure also. Yet >> > unless you have reached God in what ever manory your faith defines for >> > you, can it be said that you, mean you RP Singh of here and now, will >> > continue into eternity? >> >> > On May 4, 3:22 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Lee, eternity to my mind is no imagination but a fact. This universe >> >> came to be and will disintegrate but that is not the end of Creation , >> >> there have to be other universes in parallel and there is a continuity >> >> in Creation-- I mean that no matter how many universes disintegrate >> >> there are still other universes.God is incomplete without Creation and >> >> so the concept of eternity is valid and a " fact ". >> >> >> On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 5:32 PM, [email protected] >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Hey OM. >> >> >> > I guess what we are talking about are forces. I see that perhaps you >> >> > do not count time a s force, or that perhaps our understanding of what >> >> > time is must be constrained by the type of being we are. >> >> >> > Yes I agree that the reality maynot be wholey how we percive it to be, >> >> > as you know this has been my stance for a long while now. >> >> >> > Back to forces though. We still don't know how gravity works, but we >> >> > are sure that such a thing exists, we see it's effects all around us >> >> > and can apply sciences to measure it. Like time we can see the >> >> > effects of it. Now I'll not discount the idea that the effects of >> >> > time may be down to something else entirly. >> >> >> > The thing with imagining enternity or existing within it, is that it >> >> > is just imaginagtion isn't it. I can also imagine that I'll a tall >> >> > man with broad shoulders, but the reality of the situation is I am >> >> > not. >> >> >> > On May 4, 10:34 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Lee, I sense that what we perceive as being 'external' - energy and >> >> >> movement - is that. However, beyond this, our notions of what things >> >> >> are...even the letters and associated words for SETI... only exist in >> >> >> thought...no where else. >> >> >> >> As an aside, for those who may have missed it, SETI has been defunded. >> >> >> >> And, no, I didn't miss your caveat. I just disagree and suspect that >> >> >> having thought about what one thinks is real, which does include the >> >> >> concept of time, all one's lifetime...the notion of time becomes so >> >> >> ingrained in one's world view that it is assumed to be an actual thing >> >> >> rather than merely a thought. >> >> >> >> Yes, when one *thinks* about such things, they appear to be real. The >> >> >> operative words here are "appears to be". As a mental exercise Lee, >> >> >> I'll ask you to do your very best to imagine existing in >> >> >> eternity...that which has no beginning and no end. >> >> >> >> Got the vision?.....from this perspective (the actual 'reality'), time >> >> >> just is meaningless... especially if one also imagines no perceiver(s) >> >> >> involved anywhere at all. >> >> >> >> On the other hand, I do know that there is life and that we, as human >> >> >> beings do think and project our understandings upon the fabric of what >> >> >> we project as being 'external' to ourselves. I don't deny this...it is >> >> >> obvious that we do. It's just that what we project comes from mind and >> >> >> not from whatever is actually there. What is actually there is not >> >> >> what we perceives as time...it isn't color (except clear light as TTS >> >> >> notes...something I've been contemplating for years now...something >> >> >> that to the rational/thinking mind just can't be grasped)...it isn't >> >> >> SETI...it isn't shape...it isn't anything that human senses perceive >> >> >> and then apply some sort of belief about what is being >> >> >> perceived...based upon previously attached beliefs. We don't in our >> >> >> everyday mode perceive reality as it actually is. We do use >> >> >> conventions mind agrees upon...for practicality's sake...its just that >> >> >> in any ultimate sense, these conventions are nothing more than >> >> >> that...they are not what is actually there. Remove the observer (and >> >> >> associated senses) and what exists? Get it? No thinking...no >> >> >> thoughts...no concepts...no words...no notions of reality.... >> >> >> >> No, this isn't the conventional approach to things ontological nor >> >> >> epistemological....yet, the exercise can be of enormous value in my >> >> >> experience. No, I'm not attempting to impose a belief system upon you >> >> >> or anyone else...in fact, it is almost like a diminution of belief if >> >> >> anything at all! >> >> >> >> So, yes, how does one think about not thinking!!! >> >> >> >> Well...we have gone down this road quite often Lee...and you stop >> >> >> after only a couple of paces which is fine. >> >> >> >> For me, I hunger to know beyond my own set of beliefs...which are >> >> >> almost all things that I've attached to long ago and were formed based >> >> >> upon words...and, not having created those words...there is little >> >> >> that I actually know associated with these terms fed to me by others. >> >> >> >> To do this search, deconstruction [of beliefs] seems to be one method. >> >> >> It isn't a road often traveled nor does it seem to be for everyone. So >> >> >> be it! >> >> >> >> On May 4, 1:47 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Hey Om, >> >> >> >> > Don't be shocked mate you might have missed this bit: >> >> >> >> > ' I must though disagree with you about concepts not existing without >> >> >> > somebody to concive of them. Sure I could probably think of a >> >> >> > concept >> >> >> > or two where this is applicable, time though is not one of them.' >> >> >> >> > I like you exanples OM, but we know in a scientific way what colours >> >> >> > are, and yes without the eyes to sense them, they still exist. The >> >> >> > same with sound waves, yes of course with out the ears to hear and >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > brain to make sense of them, we can ask do they really exist, but the >> >> >> > answer must be yes. >> >> >> >> > Think of it like this. SETI have been listening to radio waves from >> >> >> > space for many years now, prior to SETI being setup, where these >> >> >> > radio >> >> >> > signals simply not there? Yes of course they where, we just didn't >> >> >> > have the now how to listen to them. >> >> >> >> > There is a valid reason why we call somethings inventions and others >> >> >> > discoverys. >> >> >> >> > I'm trying hard to Grok yoru meaning but you know that old fashioned >> >> >> > reasoning keeps interfearing. >> >> >> >> > On May 4, 5:43 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > “…Naaaa I do not think that is what you are saying. “ – Lee >> >> >> >> > > Lee, in many ways, it is exactly what I’m saying. >> >> >> >> > > First, a few examples: Color – we perceive color(s)…and different >> >> >> > > people perceive colors differently for one another too. And I’m not >> >> >> > > even thinking about the color blind nor the totally blind here. >> >> >> > > With >> >> >> > > no human brain, what we know as color just will not exist. There >> >> >> > > may >> >> >> > > be some sort of vibration/movement in the universe but there will >> >> >> > > be >> >> >> > > no color because it takes a human being to see them. Please don’t >> >> >> > > add >> >> >> > > other life forms to the equation, the principle is the same. No >> >> >> > > perceiver, no color. >> >> >> >> > > That is only one thing. How about country music? Again, while there >> >> >> > > may be vibrations/movement, without a person to ‘translate’ these >> >> >> > > vibrations into what we call country music, there just isn’t any >> >> >> > > such >> >> >> > > thing. It is a concept (country music) and doesn’t exist without >> >> >> > > mind. >> >> >> >> > > I really was shocked when you said that you disagreed with me about >> >> >> > > concepts not existing without a perceiver/thinker! Just how could >> >> >> > > say >> >> >> > > a concept of ‘freedom’ exist without mind? It just doesn’t. >> >> >> >> > > Adding a little more, when you bring in ‘labels’, yes, all >> >> >> > > concepts/ >> >> >> > > words (labels) are subjective and without mind they just don’t >> >> >> > > exist. >> >> >> > > Even when there *is* mind things like say the earth can be >> >> >> > > deconstructed into atoms and/or molecules etc…stuff that is not >> >> >> > > what >> >> >> > > we think about as being the planet. I haven’t gone into this very >> >> >> > > deeply but hope you grok. >> >> >> >> > > On May 3, 9:36 am, "[email protected]" >> >> >> > > <[email protected]> >> >> >> > > wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > Hahahah OM old chap, you and I have been round and around on >> >> >> > > > manny >> >> >> > > > matters, as you say though this is just fine. >> >> >> >> > > > Yes of course the perception of time is a construct of human >> >> >> > > > thought, >> >> >> > > > it is as I say the way we measure decay. >> >> >> >> > > > Yes of course if we do not project time upon the eternity then >> >> >> > > > time >> >> >> > > > cease to have any meaning. >> >> >> >> > > > Yet all that we know is contained in the universe and it is >> >> >> > > > clear that >> >> >> > > > within this universe time exists independant of human thought. >> >> >> >> > > > All that is physical, all that is matter is subject to decay at a >> >> >> > > > certian rate, this is time working. >> >> >> >> > > > Do you belive then that whatever is apart from the universe does >> >> >> > > > not >> >> >> > > > come under the juristriction of time? Are you saying that this >> >> >> > > > thing >> >> >> > > > we call God in some places is not subject to time, and that this >> >> >> > > > is >> >> >> > > > also true of >> >> ... >> >> read more »- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text -
