http://deoxy.org/annex/cwl.htm
On 5/4/2011 1:32 AM, the taoist shaman wrote:
O.R. , clear is my favorite color ! ornamentalmind wrote:“…Naaaa I do not think that is what you are saying. “ – Lee Lee, in many ways, it is exactly what I’m saying. First, a few examples: Color – we perceive color(s)…and different people perceive colors differently for one another too. And I’m not even thinking about the color blind nor the totally blind here. With no human brain, what we know as color just will not exist. There may be some sort of vibration/movement in the universe but there will be no color because it takes a human being to see them. Please don’t add other life forms to the equation, the principle is the same. No perceiver, no color. That is only one thing. How about country music? Again, while there may be vibrations/movement, without a person to ‘translate’ these vibrations into what we call country music, there just isn’t any such thing. It is a concept (country music) and doesn’t exist without mind. I really was shocked when you said that you disagreed with me about concepts not existing without a perceiver/thinker! Just how could say a concept of ‘freedom’ exist without mind? It just doesn’t. Adding a little more, when you bring in ‘labels’, yes, all concepts/ words (labels) are subjective and without mind they just don’t exist. Even when there *is* mind things like say the earth can be deconstructed into atoms and/or molecules etc…stuff that is not what we think about as being the planet. I haven’t gone into this very deeply but hope you grok. On May 3, 9:36 am, "[email protected]"<[email protected]> wrote:Hahahah OM old chap, you and I have been round and around on manny matters, as you say though this is just fine. Yes of course the perception of time is a construct of human thought, it is as I say the way we measure decay. Yes of course if we do not project time upon the eternity then time cease to have any meaning. Yet all that we know is contained in the universe and it is clear that within this universe time exists independant of human thought. All that is physical, all that is matter is subject to decay at a certian rate, this is time working. Do you belive then that whatever is apart from the universe does not come under the juristriction of time? Are you saying that this thing we call God in some places is not subject to time, and that this is also true of anything not composed of matter but spirit instead? If so then obviously I agree. I must though disagree with you about concepts not existing without somebody to concive of them. Sure I could probably think of a concept or two where this is applicable, time though isnot one of them. Before the Earth cooled down enough for life to start here a period of time had passed, and although nobody was there to measure how much time had passed, we can now do just that. Time then like light, exists independant of a mind to think of it. In fact are not all concepts our striving to understand what it is we sense around us? There must then be forces to sense for us tho strive to understand. Language is just labels we attach to things to enable us to communicate about them. Are you really saying these things would not exist if there where no mouths to utter the labels? Naaaa I do not think that is what you are saying. On May 3, 2:09 pm, ornamentalmind<[email protected]> wrote:Lee, we've gone round and round about 'no-time' on more than one occasion and in different forums. So, I have little hope in making this notion acceptable to you which is just fine. This can be approached on many levels. One is when one is talking about how long things exist, yes, all things have a beginning and an end. *Things*...such as planets, people, thoughts etc. Yet, if for just a moment we don't project this temporariness upon the eternity which is obvious to many, when one is in eternity, time just doesn't have any meaning at all. No beginning - No end. On a different level...at least a little different...you suggest that time will exist w/o people. This too, on one level is correct; however, I suggest that the very idea of time is found only within human thinking. No humans, no concept of time. Yes, one can *guess* that things will continue to come and go...but the very idea of 'time' just doesn't exist without a mind. The same is true for all other ideas: planet, chin, hairs (gray or black), time, universe, mirror, science, years, numbers, people...even "Lee" is but a concept thought about. No thinking, no "Lee" (or any of the other things listed). On May 3, 5:56 am, "[email protected]"<[email protected]> wrote:That's along the lines of the questions asked myself before deciding on my stance. Time would go by if there was nobody there to percive it doing so. Indeed science would have the time pass since our universe started as several billion years. When I look in the mirror I can see that time has passed, in the new lines in my face, in the ever increasing grey hairs on my head and on my chin. I don't understand this 'there is no time' though OM, care to explian that one? On May 3, 1:40 pm, ornamentalmind<[email protected]> wrote:TTS, I suggest that this isn't an either/or issue. Time as we perceive it can be both. While in any ultimate sense, there is no time most of us do wear watches and/or use clocks. It is a matter of level of perception and we are able to perceive from more than one level at a time. On May 3, 12:55 am, the taoist shaman<[email protected]> wrote:is time real or an illusion created by change ? if indeed time is an illusion created by change shurely this must have meaning, some ramification on , at the least, the way we preceive ourselves and our universe to which we are a part . if so what is the effect of this altered preception?- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
