Rigsy I would put thoguht in the matter cateogory.
On May 7, 5:47 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > So is thought spirit or matter? > > I may not understand spirit in the same way as you, lee. I am trying > to think of spirit/matter in degrees somewhat like the degrees of > shading between black and white- nine values to human perception. > > Yet humans have given God, ghosts, angels, demons material forms so I > wonder if it is believed humans cannot conceive spirit independent of > form. > > On May 5, 9:14 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > Hey Rigsy, > > > Spirit is all that exists that is not matter. Think God, think > > ghosts, angels or demons, if you belive in such. If you do not then > > at least I hope that is a little clearer. > > > On May 5, 2:48 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Please define what you mean by "spirit". Thank you. > > > > Isn't the material world in a constant state of recycling? > > > > How do you account for memory- the impact of the dead upon the living? > > > I have a crush on Marvell and Donne, btw! :-) > > > > Are some happier in their inner world or their outer world? Why? > > > > On May 5, 4:31 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > Hey Om, > > > > > See my reply to RP, for a fuller explaintion of my belifes. Yes > > > > eternity exists, but for us creatures of matter it does not. Eternity > > > > is the realm of the spirit. > > > > > Yes indeed we are back to labels, that which we label gravity, we do > > > > so in order to attempt an understanding. We are not able to > > > > communicate our thought to each other telephicly, we must use our > > > > labels, I'm sure that you'll agree this methoed is fraught with all > > > > sorts of obsticles, but it is the one we have and so we must use it. > > > > > Exists is another such label, and my thanks to you for defineing it. I > > > > would further define it as that which is. So all creatures of spirit > > > > included. That though is of course a belife of mine, and so you can > > > > agree or disagree at your whim. > > > > > On May 4, 5:26 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > “…We still don't know how gravity works, but we > > > > > are sure that such a thing exists, we see it's effects all around us > > > > > and can apply sciences to measure it. Like time we can see the > > > > > effects of it. Now I'll not discount the idea that the effects of > > > > > time may be down to something else entirly…” – Lee > > > > > > True that we don’t know how gravity works. I’ll add that we don’t know > > > > > what it is either…even though there is a predictable ‘effect’. So, not > > > > > knowing what a thing is nor how it works how do we know that it > > > > > exists? Here I’ll use the understanding of the term ‘exists’ as being > > > > > something that the physical senses see/feel/hear etc. We don’t see > > > > > ‘it’ (gravity). We only see some predictable movement and that > > > > > movement applies to about everything so in this sense it is not > > > > > unique… > > > > > let alone a unique ‘thing’. Now, one need not agree with this of > > > > > course; however, if not, it would appear congruent to me that one > > > > > could say that god ‘exists’ in the same way. . . something that I > > > > > suggest (in most cases) is but a belief…not any objective ‘existence’. > > > > > > “…The thing with imagining enternity or existing within it, is that > > > > > it > > > > > is just imaginagtion isn't it…” - Lee > > > > > > Yes Lee, if one merely imagines it…it is. However, are you suggesting > > > > > that we do not live in eternity? That eternity doesn’t ‘exist’? These > > > > > are all parts of the examination I suggest. > > > > > > On May 4, 5:02 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hey OM. > > > > > > > I guess what we are talking about are forces. I see that perhaps > > > > > > you > > > > > > do not count time a s force, or that perhaps our understanding of > > > > > > what > > > > > > time is must be constrained by the type of being we are. > > > > > > > Yes I agree that the reality maynot be wholey how we percive it to > > > > > > be, > > > > > > as you know this has been my stance for a long while now. > > > > > > > Back to forces though. We still don't know how gravity works, but > > > > > > we > > > > > > are sure that such a thing exists, we see it's effects all around us > > > > > > and can apply sciences to measure it. Like time we can see the > > > > > > effects of it. Now I'll not discount the idea that the effects of > > > > > > time may be down to something else entirly. > > > > > > > The thing with imagining enternity or existing within it, is that it > > > > > > is just imaginagtion isn't it. I can also imagine that I'll a tall > > > > > > man with broad shoulders, but the reality of the situation is I am > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > On May 4, 10:34 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Lee, I sense that what we perceive as being 'external' - energy > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > movement - is that. However, beyond this, our notions of what > > > > > > > things > > > > > > > are...even the letters and associated words for SETI... only > > > > > > > exist in > > > > > > > thought...no where else. > > > > > > > > As an aside, for those who may have missed it, SETI has been > > > > > > > defunded. > > > > > > > > And, no, I didn't miss your caveat. I just disagree and suspect > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > having thought about what one thinks is real, which does include > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > concept of time, all one's lifetime...the notion of time becomes > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > ingrained in one's world view that it is assumed to be an actual > > > > > > > thing > > > > > > > rather than merely a thought. > > > > > > > > Yes, when one *thinks* about such things, they appear to be real. > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > operative words here are "appears to be". As a mental exercise > > > > > > > Lee, > > > > > > > I'll ask you to do your very best to imagine existing in > > > > > > > eternity...that which has no beginning and no end. > > > > > > > > Got the vision?.....from this perspective (the actual 'reality'), > > > > > > > time > > > > > > > just is meaningless... especially if one also imagines no > > > > > > > perceiver(s) > > > > > > > involved anywhere at all. > > > > > > > > On the other hand, I do know that there is life and that we, as > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > beings do think and project our understandings upon the fabric of > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > we project as being 'external' to ourselves. I don't deny > > > > > > > this...it is > > > > > > > obvious that we do. It's just that what we project comes from > > > > > > > mind and > > > > > > > not from whatever is actually there. What is actually there is not > > > > > > > what we perceives as time...it isn't color (except clear light as > > > > > > > TTS > > > > > > > notes...something I've been contemplating for years > > > > > > > now...something > > > > > > > that to the rational/thinking mind just can't be grasped)...it > > > > > > > isn't > > > > > > > SETI...it isn't shape...it isn't anything that human senses > > > > > > > perceive > > > > > > > and then apply some sort of belief about what is being > > > > > > > perceived...based upon previously attached beliefs. We don't in > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > everyday mode perceive reality as it actually is. We do use > > > > > > > conventions mind agrees upon...for practicality's sake...its just > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > in any ultimate sense, these conventions are nothing more than > > > > > > > that...they are not what is actually there. Remove the observer > > > > > > > (and > > > > > > > associated senses) and what exists? Get it? No thinking...no > > > > > > > thoughts...no concepts...no words...no notions of reality.... > > > > > > > > No, this isn't the conventional approach to things ontological nor > > > > > > > epistemological....yet, the exercise can be of enormous value in > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > experience. No, I'm not attempting to impose a belief system upon > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > or anyone else...in fact, it is almost like a diminution of > > > > > > > belief if > > > > > > > anything at all! > > > > > > > > So, yes, how does one think about not thinking!!! > > > > > > > > Well...we have gone down this road quite often Lee...and you stop > > > > > > > after only a couple of paces which is fine. > > > > > > > > For me, I hunger to know beyond my own set of beliefs...which are > > > > > > > almost all things that I've attached to long ago and were formed > > > > > > > based > > > > > > > upon words...and, not having created those words...there is little > > > > > > > that I actually know associated with these terms fed to me by > > > > > > > others. > > > > > > > > To do this search, deconstruction [of beliefs] seems to be one > > > > > > > method. > > > > > > > It isn't a road often traveled nor does it seem to be for > > > > > > > everyone. So > > > > > > > be it! > > > > > > > > On May 4, 1:47 am, "[email protected]" > > > > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hey Om, > > > > > > > > > Don't be shocked mate you might have missed this bit: > > > > > > > > > ' I must though disagree with you about concepts not existing > > > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > somebody to concive of them. Sure I could probably think of a > > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > or two where this is applicable, time though is not one of > > > > > > > > them.' > > > > > > > > > I like you exanples OM, but we know in a scientific way what > > > > > > > > colours > > > > > > > > are, and yes without the eyes to sense them, they still exist. > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > same with sound waves, yes of course with out the ears to hear > > > > > > > > and the > > > > > > > > brain to make sense of them, we can ask do they really exist, > > > > > > > > but the > > > > > > > > answer must be yes. > > > > > > > > > Think of it like this. SETI have been listening to radio waves > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > space for many years now, prior to SETI being setup, where > > > > > > > > these radio > > > > > > > > signals simply not there? Yes of course they where, we just > > > > > > > > didn't > > > > > > > > have the now how to listen to them. > > > > > > > > > There is a valid reason why we call somethings inventions and > > > > > > > > others > > > > > > > > discoverys. > > > > > > > > > I'm trying hard to Grok yoru meaning but you know that old > > > > > > > > fashioned > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
