Lee , granted it is the I making the choice , but the question remains whether it is doing so freely or bound by some factors. A man is shouting at the top of his voice , but is he doing so bound by the emotion of anger or freely as you so assert ? What in your view is Freedom ? Do you feel emotions out of choice or do they engulf you automatically ?
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > Okay fair doo's then RP. > > No sir I see no contradiction here. > > My stance being that freedom of choice exists, if you make a choice > under duress it is still you, the I, making the choice. > > On Aug 9, 1:30 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> Lee , I merely answered your question to Om , maybe I shouldn't have , >> but doesn't it contradict what you were then asserting. Let my beliefs >> be for the moment and think of a reasonable answer. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> > hehe but according to you RP no desicions are free. >> >> > On Aug 9, 10:39 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Decision taken under duress is not a free one , you couldn't have >> >> chosen otherwise given your temperament. >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >> > Yes fear is a great motivater, as is love I guess. >> >> >> > Although what I'm really talking about is decision. >> >> >> > If I am treatend with pain or death, do this or I'll cut off your >> >> > toes, I may well do as I am being threatend to do, but the moment I >> >> > make the desicion to comply, it is I that has made that desicion. In >> >> > effect I have choosen to do what I previously choose not to do. >> >> >> > On Aug 8, 10:10 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> ...in other words Lee...fear of personal or other torture and/or >> >> >> death. >> >> >> >> On Aug 8, 4:12 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Ahh then I see. I do not belive that choice and free will are >> >> >> > seperate things at all. >> >> >> >> > Let us look at the words. >> >> >> >> > Free will. >> >> >> >> > The ability to chose in acordance with your will. >> >> >> >> > On Aug 8, 11:47 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > Haven't you noticed trying to get from A to B and winding up at C? >> >> >> > > I >> >> >> > > have. So far I have been going over some stuff by Sophocles. >> >> >> > > Epictetus, Zola, Marx&Engels, Huxley and Skinner (Determinists) but >> >> >> > > have to read Dostoyevsky and Hocking (Free Will). I think there is >> >> >> > > a >> >> >> > > difference between choice and free will. I make choices all the >> >> >> > > time >> >> >> > > but am not sure my will is really free. >> >> >> >> > > On Aug 8, 5:07 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > Ohh I disagree with this entirley Rigsy. >> >> >> >> > > > At the time the Minds says take action B, then we have made a >> >> >> > > > choice. >> >> >> > > > I question the ability of things to force a desicion from us and >> >> >> > > > I'l >> >> >> > > > ask once again is it possible for somebody to force anybody into >> >> >> > > > makeing a choice that they do not want to? >> >> >> >> > > > On Aug 6, 2:22 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > I disagree that we possess or always have free will at our >> >> >> > > > > disposal- >> >> >> > > > > even the civil laws make distinctions. We are forced onto many >> >> >> > > > > paths >> >> >> > > > > and decisions- softly or harshly. >> >> >> >> > > > > On Aug 5, 2:04 pm, Allan Heretic <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > > You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it created. >> >> >> > > > > > It is the consequences of those choices that can be a bitch, >> >> >> > > > > > Allan >> >> >> >> > > > > > On 4 aug. 2011, at 17:48, paradox <[email protected]> >> >> >> > > > > > wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > > > There are a number of approaches to this question, Jo; but >> >> >> > > > > > > essentially >> >> >> > > > > > > and in summary (and i do a great injustice to a very >> >> >> > > > > > > powerful >> >> >> > > > > > > philosophical school), the deterministic tradition >> >> >> > > > > > > suggests that since >> >> >> > > > > > > we''re fundamentally bounded chemical systems immersed in >> >> >> > > > > > > a "sea" of >> >> >> > > > > > > ever more elaborate chemical processes, regulated by >> >> >> > > > > > > immutable >> >> >> > > > > > > (replicable and predictive) physical laws, and nothing >> >> >> > > > > > > else (which >> >> >> > > > > > > takes you back to the mind/brain question), our actions >> >> >> > > > > > > are no more >> >> >> > > > > > > than expressions of these chemical processes, constrained >> >> >> > > > > > > at an >> >> >> > > > > > > aggregate level by universal physical laws. When we think >> >> >> > > > > > > we make >> >> >> > > > > > > decisions based on choice, it is the mind "stroking" >> >> >> > > > > > > itself since, in >> >> >> > > > > > > terms of "proximate" action, we know that our decisions >> >> >> > > > > > > are preceeded >> >> >> > > > > > > in time by a neuro-electrcal "footprint" (interesting work >> >> >> > > > > > > by Benjamin >> >> >> > > > > > > Libet, presented in his book "Mind Time"); and in terms of >> >> >> > > > > > > more >> >> >> > > > > > > deliberative action, we are pretty certain to make the >> >> >> > > > > > > same decisions >> >> >> > > > > > > over and over again given the same set of variables, since >> >> >> > > > > > > our >> >> >> > > > > > > cognition is hard wired, and its operations are governed >> >> >> > > > > > > by the self >> >> >> > > > > > > same chemical processes and physical laws. Hence the >> >> >> > > > > > > question: do we >> >> >> > > > > > > have free will? and if we do, how much free will do we >> >> >> > > > > > > have? >> >> >> >> > > > > > > On Aug 2, 7:44 pm, Jo <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > > > > > >> I don't understand how some can say we don't have free >> >> >> > > > > > >> will. You can >> >> >> > > > > > >> choose to do anything you want at any given time. How is >> >> >> > > > > > >> that not free >> >> >> > > > > > >> will? >> >> >> >> > > > > > >> On Aug 2, 12:51 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> "We have access to a technology that would have looked >> >> >> > > > > > >>> like sorcery in >> >> >> > > > > > >>> Descartes's day: the ability to peer inside someone's >> >> >> > > > > > >>> head and read >> >> >> > > > > > >>> their thoughts. Unfortunately, that doesn't take us any >> >> >> > > > > > >>> nearer to >> >> >> > > > > > >>> knowing whether they are sentient. "Even if you measure >> >> >> > > > > > >>> brainwaves, >> >> >> > > > > > >>> you can never know exactly what experience they >> >> >> > > > > > >>> represent," says >> >> >> > > > > > >>> psychologist Bruce Hood at the University of Bristol, >> >> >> > > > > > >>> UK. If >> >> >> > > > > > >>> anything, brain scanning has undermined Descartes's >> >> >> > > > > > >>> maxim. You, too, >> >> >> > > > > > >>> might be a zombie. "I happen to be one myself," says >> >> >> > > > > > >>> Stanford >> >> >> > > > > > >>> University philosopher Paul Skokowski. "And so, even if >> >> >> > > > > > >>> you don't >> >> >> > > > > > >>> realise it, are you." Skokowski's assertion is based on >> >> >> > > > > > >>> the belief, >> >> >> > > > > > >>> particularly common among neuroscientists who study >> >> >> > > > > > >>> brain scans, that >> >> >> > > > > > >>> we do not have free will. There is no ghost in the >> >> >> > > > > > >>> machine; our >> >> >> > > > > > >>> actions are driven by brain states that lie entirely >> >> >> > > > > > >>> beyond our >> >> >> > > > > > >>> control. "I think, therefore I am" might be an illusion. >> >> >> > > > > > >>> So, it may well be that you live in a computer >> >> >> > > > > > >>> simulation in which you >> >> >> > > > > > >>> are the only self-aware creature. I could well be a >> >> >> > > > > > >>> zombie and so >> >> >> > > > > > >>> could you. Have an interesting day." (from a recent New >> >> >> > > > > > >>> Scientist) >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> We range over debates in free will and what it is to be >> >> >> > > > > > >>> human. So far >> >> >> > > > > > >>> we haven't established free will or even that we are not >> >> >> > > > > > >>> merely >> >> >> > > > > > >>> avatars in 'something else's game'. >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> I wonder whether there are advantages in considering >> >> >> > > > > > >>> ourselves as >> >> >> > > > > > >>> creatures limited by programming and also capable of >> >> >> > > > > > >>> it?- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text -
