Decision taken under duress is not a free one , you couldn't have chosen otherwise given your temperament.
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes fear is a great motivater, as is love I guess. > > Although what I'm really talking about is decision. > > If I am treatend with pain or death, do this or I'll cut off your > toes, I may well do as I am being threatend to do, but the moment I > make the desicion to comply, it is I that has made that desicion. In > effect I have choosen to do what I previously choose not to do. > > On Aug 8, 10:10 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: >> ...in other words Lee...fear of personal or other torture and/or >> death. >> >> On Aug 8, 4:12 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Ahh then I see. I do not belive that choice and free will are >> > seperate things at all. >> >> > Let us look at the words. >> >> > Free will. >> >> > The ability to chose in acordance with your will. >> >> > On Aug 8, 11:47 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > Haven't you noticed trying to get from A to B and winding up at C? I >> > > have. So far I have been going over some stuff by Sophocles. >> > > Epictetus, Zola, Marx&Engels, Huxley and Skinner (Determinists) but >> > > have to read Dostoyevsky and Hocking (Free Will). I think there is a >> > > difference between choice and free will. I make choices all the time >> > > but am not sure my will is really free. >> >> > > On Aug 8, 5:07 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > > Ohh I disagree with this entirley Rigsy. >> >> > > > At the time the Minds says take action B, then we have made a choice. >> > > > I question the ability of things to force a desicion from us and I'l >> > > > ask once again is it possible for somebody to force anybody into >> > > > makeing a choice that they do not want to? >> >> > > > On Aug 6, 2:22 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > > > I disagree that we possess or always have free will at our disposal- >> > > > > even the civil laws make distinctions. We are forced onto many paths >> > > > > and decisions- softly or harshly. >> >> > > > > On Aug 5, 2:04 pm, Allan Heretic <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > > > > You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it created. It >> > > > > > is the consequences of those choices that can be a bitch, >> > > > > > Allan >> >> > > > > > On 4 aug. 2011, at 17:48, paradox <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > > > > > There are a number of approaches to this question, Jo; but >> > > > > > > essentially >> > > > > > > and in summary (and i do a great injustice to a very powerful >> > > > > > > philosophical school), the deterministic tradition suggests that >> > > > > > > since >> > > > > > > we''re fundamentally bounded chemical systems immersed in a >> > > > > > > "sea" of >> > > > > > > ever more elaborate chemical processes, regulated by immutable >> > > > > > > (replicable and predictive) physical laws, and nothing else >> > > > > > > (which >> > > > > > > takes you back to the mind/brain question), our actions are no >> > > > > > > more >> > > > > > > than expressions of these chemical processes, constrained at an >> > > > > > > aggregate level by universal physical laws. When we think we make >> > > > > > > decisions based on choice, it is the mind "stroking" itself >> > > > > > > since, in >> > > > > > > terms of "proximate" action, we know that our decisions are >> > > > > > > preceeded >> > > > > > > in time by a neuro-electrcal "footprint" (interesting work by >> > > > > > > Benjamin >> > > > > > > Libet, presented in his book "Mind Time"); and in terms of more >> > > > > > > deliberative action, we are pretty certain to make the same >> > > > > > > decisions >> > > > > > > over and over again given the same set of variables, since our >> > > > > > > cognition is hard wired, and its operations are governed by the >> > > > > > > self >> > > > > > > same chemical processes and physical laws. Hence the question: >> > > > > > > do we >> > > > > > > have free will? and if we do, how much free will do we have? >> >> > > > > > > On Aug 2, 7:44 pm, Jo <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > > > > >> I don't understand how some can say we don't have free will. >> > > > > > >> You can >> > > > > > >> choose to do anything you want at any given time. How is that >> > > > > > >> not free >> > > > > > >> will? >> >> > > > > > >> On Aug 2, 12:51 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > > > > >>> "We have access to a technology that would have looked like >> > > > > > >>> sorcery in >> > > > > > >>> Descartes's day: the ability to peer inside someone's head and >> > > > > > >>> read >> > > > > > >>> their thoughts. Unfortunately, that doesn't take us any nearer >> > > > > > >>> to >> > > > > > >>> knowing whether they are sentient. "Even if you measure >> > > > > > >>> brainwaves, >> > > > > > >>> you can never know exactly what experience they represent," >> > > > > > >>> says >> > > > > > >>> psychologist Bruce Hood at the University of Bristol, UK. If >> > > > > > >>> anything, brain scanning has undermined Descartes's maxim. >> > > > > > >>> You, too, >> > > > > > >>> might be a zombie. "I happen to be one myself," says Stanford >> > > > > > >>> University philosopher Paul Skokowski. "And so, even if you >> > > > > > >>> don't >> > > > > > >>> realise it, are you." Skokowski's assertion is based on the >> > > > > > >>> belief, >> > > > > > >>> particularly common among neuroscientists who study brain >> > > > > > >>> scans, that >> > > > > > >>> we do not have free will. There is no ghost in the machine; our >> > > > > > >>> actions are driven by brain states that lie entirely beyond our >> > > > > > >>> control. "I think, therefore I am" might be an illusion. >> > > > > > >>> So, it may well be that you live in a computer simulation in >> > > > > > >>> which you >> > > > > > >>> are the only self-aware creature. I could well be a zombie and >> > > > > > >>> so >> > > > > > >>> could you. Have an interesting day." (from a recent New >> > > > > > >>> Scientist) >> >> > > > > > >>> We range over debates in free will and what it is to be human. >> > > > > > >>> So far >> > > > > > >>> we haven't established free will or even that we are not merely >> > > > > > >>> avatars in 'something else's game'. >> >> > > > > > >>> I wonder whether there are advantages in considering ourselves >> > > > > > >>> as >> > > > > > >>> creatures limited by programming and also capable of it?- Hide >> > > > > > >>> quoted text - >> >> > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text -
