Okay fair doo's then RP. No sir I see no contradiction here.
My stance being that freedom of choice exists, if you make a choice under duress it is still you, the I, making the choice. On Aug 9, 1:30 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > Lee , I merely answered your question to Om , maybe I shouldn't have , > but doesn't it contradict what you were then asserting. Let my beliefs > be for the moment and think of a reasonable answer. > > > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > hehe but according to you RP no desicions are free. > > > On Aug 9, 10:39 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Decision taken under duress is not a free one , you couldn't have > >> chosen otherwise given your temperament. > > >> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > Yes fear is a great motivater, as is love I guess. > > >> > Although what I'm really talking about is decision. > > >> > If I am treatend with pain or death, do this or I'll cut off your > >> > toes, I may well do as I am being threatend to do, but the moment I > >> > make the desicion to comply, it is I that has made that desicion. In > >> > effect I have choosen to do what I previously choose not to do. > > >> > On Aug 8, 10:10 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> ...in other words Lee...fear of personal or other torture and/or > >> >> death. > > >> >> On Aug 8, 4:12 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > Ahh then I see. I do not belive that choice and free will are > >> >> > seperate things at all. > > >> >> > Let us look at the words. > > >> >> > Free will. > > >> >> > The ability to chose in acordance with your will. > > >> >> > On Aug 8, 11:47 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > > Haven't you noticed trying to get from A to B and winding up at C? I > >> >> > > have. So far I have been going over some stuff by Sophocles. > >> >> > > Epictetus, Zola, Marx&Engels, Huxley and Skinner (Determinists) but > >> >> > > have to read Dostoyevsky and Hocking (Free Will). I think there is a > >> >> > > difference between choice and free will. I make choices all the time > >> >> > > but am not sure my will is really free. > > >> >> > > On Aug 8, 5:07 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > > > Ohh I disagree with this entirley Rigsy. > > >> >> > > > At the time the Minds says take action B, then we have made a > >> >> > > > choice. > >> >> > > > I question the ability of things to force a desicion from us and > >> >> > > > I'l > >> >> > > > ask once again is it possible for somebody to force anybody into > >> >> > > > makeing a choice that they do not want to? > > >> >> > > > On Aug 6, 2:22 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > > > > I disagree that we possess or always have free will at our > >> >> > > > > disposal- > >> >> > > > > even the civil laws make distinctions. We are forced onto many > >> >> > > > > paths > >> >> > > > > and decisions- softly or harshly. > > >> >> > > > > On Aug 5, 2:04 pm, Allan Heretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > > > > > You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it created. > >> >> > > > > > It is the consequences of those choices that can be a bitch, > >> >> > > > > > Allan > > >> >> > > > > > On 4 aug. 2011, at 17:48, paradox <[email protected]> > >> >> > > > > > wrote: > > >> >> > > > > > > There are a number of approaches to this question, Jo; but > >> >> > > > > > > essentially > >> >> > > > > > > and in summary (and i do a great injustice to a very > >> >> > > > > > > powerful > >> >> > > > > > > philosophical school), the deterministic tradition suggests > >> >> > > > > > > that since > >> >> > > > > > > we''re fundamentally bounded chemical systems immersed in a > >> >> > > > > > > "sea" of > >> >> > > > > > > ever more elaborate chemical processes, regulated by > >> >> > > > > > > immutable > >> >> > > > > > > (replicable and predictive) physical laws, and nothing else > >> >> > > > > > > (which > >> >> > > > > > > takes you back to the mind/brain question), our actions are > >> >> > > > > > > no more > >> >> > > > > > > than expressions of these chemical processes, constrained > >> >> > > > > > > at an > >> >> > > > > > > aggregate level by universal physical laws. When we think > >> >> > > > > > > we make > >> >> > > > > > > decisions based on choice, it is the mind "stroking" itself > >> >> > > > > > > since, in > >> >> > > > > > > terms of "proximate" action, we know that our decisions are > >> >> > > > > > > preceeded > >> >> > > > > > > in time by a neuro-electrcal "footprint" (interesting work > >> >> > > > > > > by Benjamin > >> >> > > > > > > Libet, presented in his book "Mind Time"); and in terms of > >> >> > > > > > > more > >> >> > > > > > > deliberative action, we are pretty certain to make the same > >> >> > > > > > > decisions > >> >> > > > > > > over and over again given the same set of variables, since > >> >> > > > > > > our > >> >> > > > > > > cognition is hard wired, and its operations are governed by > >> >> > > > > > > the self > >> >> > > > > > > same chemical processes and physical laws. Hence the > >> >> > > > > > > question: do we > >> >> > > > > > > have free will? and if we do, how much free will do we have? > > >> >> > > > > > > On Aug 2, 7:44 pm, Jo <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > > > > > >> I don't understand how some can say we don't have free > >> >> > > > > > >> will. You can > >> >> > > > > > >> choose to do anything you want at any given time. How is > >> >> > > > > > >> that not free > >> >> > > > > > >> will? > > >> >> > > > > > >> On Aug 2, 12:51 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > > > > > >>> "We have access to a technology that would have looked > >> >> > > > > > >>> like sorcery in > >> >> > > > > > >>> Descartes's day: the ability to peer inside someone's > >> >> > > > > > >>> head and read > >> >> > > > > > >>> their thoughts. Unfortunately, that doesn't take us any > >> >> > > > > > >>> nearer to > >> >> > > > > > >>> knowing whether they are sentient. "Even if you measure > >> >> > > > > > >>> brainwaves, > >> >> > > > > > >>> you can never know exactly what experience they > >> >> > > > > > >>> represent," says > >> >> > > > > > >>> psychologist Bruce Hood at the University of Bristol, UK. > >> >> > > > > > >>> If > >> >> > > > > > >>> anything, brain scanning has undermined Descartes's > >> >> > > > > > >>> maxim. You, too, > >> >> > > > > > >>> might be a zombie. "I happen to be one myself," says > >> >> > > > > > >>> Stanford > >> >> > > > > > >>> University philosopher Paul Skokowski. "And so, even if > >> >> > > > > > >>> you don't > >> >> > > > > > >>> realise it, are you." Skokowski's assertion is based on > >> >> > > > > > >>> the belief, > >> >> > > > > > >>> particularly common among neuroscientists who study brain > >> >> > > > > > >>> scans, that > >> >> > > > > > >>> we do not have free will. There is no ghost in the > >> >> > > > > > >>> machine; our > >> >> > > > > > >>> actions are driven by brain states that lie entirely > >> >> > > > > > >>> beyond our > >> >> > > > > > >>> control. "I think, therefore I am" might be an illusion. > >> >> > > > > > >>> So, it may well be that you live in a computer simulation > >> >> > > > > > >>> in which you > >> >> > > > > > >>> are the only self-aware creature. I could well be a > >> >> > > > > > >>> zombie and so > >> >> > > > > > >>> could you. Have an interesting day." (from a recent New > >> >> > > > > > >>> Scientist) > > >> >> > > > > > >>> We range over debates in free will and what it is to be > >> >> > > > > > >>> human. So far > >> >> > > > > > >>> we haven't established free will or even that we are not > >> >> > > > > > >>> merely > >> >> > > > > > >>> avatars in 'something else's game'. > > >> >> > > > > > >>> I wonder whether there are advantages in considering > >> >> > > > > > >>> ourselves as > >> >> > > > > > >>> creatures limited by programming and also capable of it?- > >> >> > > > > > >>> Hide quoted text - > > >> >> > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > >> >> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > >> >> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > >> >> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > >> >> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > >> >> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
