Lee , I merely answered your question to Om , maybe I shouldn't have , but doesn't it contradict what you were then asserting. Let my beliefs be for the moment and think of a reasonable answer.
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > hehe but according to you RP no desicions are free. > > On Aug 9, 10:39 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> Decision taken under duress is not a free one , you couldn't have >> chosen otherwise given your temperament. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Yes fear is a great motivater, as is love I guess. >> >> > Although what I'm really talking about is decision. >> >> > If I am treatend with pain or death, do this or I'll cut off your >> > toes, I may well do as I am being threatend to do, but the moment I >> > make the desicion to comply, it is I that has made that desicion. In >> > effect I have choosen to do what I previously choose not to do. >> >> > On Aug 8, 10:10 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> ...in other words Lee...fear of personal or other torture and/or >> >> death. >> >> >> On Aug 8, 4:12 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > Ahh then I see. I do not belive that choice and free will are >> >> > seperate things at all. >> >> >> > Let us look at the words. >> >> >> > Free will. >> >> >> > The ability to chose in acordance with your will. >> >> >> > On Aug 8, 11:47 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > > Haven't you noticed trying to get from A to B and winding up at C? I >> >> > > have. So far I have been going over some stuff by Sophocles. >> >> > > Epictetus, Zola, Marx&Engels, Huxley and Skinner (Determinists) but >> >> > > have to read Dostoyevsky and Hocking (Free Will). I think there is a >> >> > > difference between choice and free will. I make choices all the time >> >> > > but am not sure my will is really free. >> >> >> > > On Aug 8, 5:07 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > > > Ohh I disagree with this entirley Rigsy. >> >> >> > > > At the time the Minds says take action B, then we have made a >> >> > > > choice. >> >> > > > I question the ability of things to force a desicion from us and I'l >> >> > > > ask once again is it possible for somebody to force anybody into >> >> > > > makeing a choice that they do not want to? >> >> >> > > > On Aug 6, 2:22 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > > > > I disagree that we possess or always have free will at our >> >> > > > > disposal- >> >> > > > > even the civil laws make distinctions. We are forced onto many >> >> > > > > paths >> >> > > > > and decisions- softly or harshly. >> >> >> > > > > On Aug 5, 2:04 pm, Allan Heretic <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > > > > > You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it created. >> >> > > > > > It is the consequences of those choices that can be a bitch, >> >> > > > > > Allan >> >> >> > > > > > On 4 aug. 2011, at 17:48, paradox <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > > > > > > There are a number of approaches to this question, Jo; but >> >> > > > > > > essentially >> >> > > > > > > and in summary (and i do a great injustice to a very powerful >> >> > > > > > > philosophical school), the deterministic tradition suggests >> >> > > > > > > that since >> >> > > > > > > we''re fundamentally bounded chemical systems immersed in a >> >> > > > > > > "sea" of >> >> > > > > > > ever more elaborate chemical processes, regulated by immutable >> >> > > > > > > (replicable and predictive) physical laws, and nothing else >> >> > > > > > > (which >> >> > > > > > > takes you back to the mind/brain question), our actions are >> >> > > > > > > no more >> >> > > > > > > than expressions of these chemical processes, constrained at >> >> > > > > > > an >> >> > > > > > > aggregate level by universal physical laws. When we think we >> >> > > > > > > make >> >> > > > > > > decisions based on choice, it is the mind "stroking" itself >> >> > > > > > > since, in >> >> > > > > > > terms of "proximate" action, we know that our decisions are >> >> > > > > > > preceeded >> >> > > > > > > in time by a neuro-electrcal "footprint" (interesting work by >> >> > > > > > > Benjamin >> >> > > > > > > Libet, presented in his book "Mind Time"); and in terms of >> >> > > > > > > more >> >> > > > > > > deliberative action, we are pretty certain to make the same >> >> > > > > > > decisions >> >> > > > > > > over and over again given the same set of variables, since our >> >> > > > > > > cognition is hard wired, and its operations are governed by >> >> > > > > > > the self >> >> > > > > > > same chemical processes and physical laws. Hence the >> >> > > > > > > question: do we >> >> > > > > > > have free will? and if we do, how much free will do we have? >> >> >> > > > > > > On Aug 2, 7:44 pm, Jo <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > > > > >> I don't understand how some can say we don't have free will. >> >> > > > > > >> You can >> >> > > > > > >> choose to do anything you want at any given time. How is >> >> > > > > > >> that not free >> >> > > > > > >> will? >> >> >> > > > > > >> On Aug 2, 12:51 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > > > > > >>> "We have access to a technology that would have looked like >> >> > > > > > >>> sorcery in >> >> > > > > > >>> Descartes's day: the ability to peer inside someone's head >> >> > > > > > >>> and read >> >> > > > > > >>> their thoughts. Unfortunately, that doesn't take us any >> >> > > > > > >>> nearer to >> >> > > > > > >>> knowing whether they are sentient. "Even if you measure >> >> > > > > > >>> brainwaves, >> >> > > > > > >>> you can never know exactly what experience they represent," >> >> > > > > > >>> says >> >> > > > > > >>> psychologist Bruce Hood at the University of Bristol, UK. >> >> > > > > > >>> If >> >> > > > > > >>> anything, brain scanning has undermined Descartes's maxim. >> >> > > > > > >>> You, too, >> >> > > > > > >>> might be a zombie. "I happen to be one myself," says >> >> > > > > > >>> Stanford >> >> > > > > > >>> University philosopher Paul Skokowski. "And so, even if you >> >> > > > > > >>> don't >> >> > > > > > >>> realise it, are you." Skokowski's assertion is based on the >> >> > > > > > >>> belief, >> >> > > > > > >>> particularly common among neuroscientists who study brain >> >> > > > > > >>> scans, that >> >> > > > > > >>> we do not have free will. There is no ghost in the machine; >> >> > > > > > >>> our >> >> > > > > > >>> actions are driven by brain states that lie entirely beyond >> >> > > > > > >>> our >> >> > > > > > >>> control. "I think, therefore I am" might be an illusion. >> >> > > > > > >>> So, it may well be that you live in a computer simulation >> >> > > > > > >>> in which you >> >> > > > > > >>> are the only self-aware creature. I could well be a zombie >> >> > > > > > >>> and so >> >> > > > > > >>> could you. Have an interesting day." (from a recent New >> >> > > > > > >>> Scientist) >> >> >> > > > > > >>> We range over debates in free will and what it is to be >> >> > > > > > >>> human. So far >> >> > > > > > >>> we haven't established free will or even that we are not >> >> > > > > > >>> merely >> >> > > > > > >>> avatars in 'something else's game'. >> >> >> > > > > > >>> I wonder whether there are advantages in considering >> >> > > > > > >>> ourselves as >> >> > > > > > >>> creatures limited by programming and also capable of it?- >> >> > > > > > >>> Hide quoted text - >> >> >> > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text -
