Okay Lee , it is you who choose whether to fly by plane or helicopter . But that choice is a result of your judgement or inclination and so it is essentially not a free choice but an outcome of your faculty of judgement or your preferences. You control your anger because your judgement says so or your religion says so , now don't answer that this choice of motive is free because basically it is the motive which is behind your choice. How you arrive at your motives is another matter and is a subject of science , your basic instincts ,your gregariousness , your reason and so on. These are some of the forces behind a man's choice , choice is never alone , it always has a reason viz. these drives and motivational forces.
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > Ahh I see. > > No RP, I have always maintained that free will is simply the ability > to choose. There really is no such thing as a free choice, all > choices can only be made within the bounds of the choice avaliable. > > I may choose to fly unaided by mechanics, I simply cannot so, that > choice is not avaliable to me, but I can choose which mechanical > device to use to fly, glider, plane, helicopter. > > As to emotions, you can still choose how you use your emotions. When > you are angry you can choose what to do with that anger if you > practice enough of course. > > Myself I am never engulfed by my emotions, I have practiced hard for > many years now to be the master of my emotions, to use them as I will, > and not the other way around. > > I tell you my freind, I'm the small, scruffy, poor bloke that your dad > warned you never to pick on. I have had to fight for most of my life, > and I learned a loooong time ago that if violence has to be done, it > is better done in a calm mannor, it frightens the heck out of people. > > so am I emotional, yes of course who is not, but no my emotions do not > engulf me. > > > On Aug 9, 2:57 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> Lee , granted it is the I making the choice , but the question remains >> whether it is doing so freely or bound by some factors. A man is >> shouting at the top of his voice , but is he doing so bound by the >> emotion of anger or freely as you so assert ? What in your view is >> Freedom ? Do you feel emotions out of choice or do they engulf you >> automatically ? >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Okay fair doo's then RP. >> >> > No sir I see no contradiction here. >> >> > My stance being that freedom of choice exists, if you make a choice >> > under duress it is still you, the I, making the choice. >> >> > On Aug 9, 1:30 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Lee , I merely answered your question to Om , maybe I shouldn't have , >> >> but doesn't it contradict what you were then asserting. Let my beliefs >> >> be for the moment and think of a reasonable answer. >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:42 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >> > hehe but according to you RP no desicions are free. >> >> >> > On Aug 9, 10:39 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Decision taken under duress is not a free one , you couldn't have >> >> >> chosen otherwise given your temperament. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > Yes fear is a great motivater, as is love I guess. >> >> >> >> > Although what I'm really talking about is decision. >> >> >> >> > If I am treatend with pain or death, do this or I'll cut off your >> >> >> > toes, I may well do as I am being threatend to do, but the moment I >> >> >> > make the desicion to comply, it is I that has made that desicion. In >> >> >> > effect I have choosen to do what I previously choose not to do. >> >> >> >> > On Aug 8, 10:10 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> ...in other words Lee...fear of personal or other torture and/or >> >> >> >> death. >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 8, 4:12 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > Ahh then I see. I do not belive that choice and free will are >> >> >> >> > seperate things at all. >> >> >> >> >> > Let us look at the words. >> >> >> >> >> > Free will. >> >> >> >> >> > The ability to chose in acordance with your will. >> >> >> >> >> > On Aug 8, 11:47 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > Haven't you noticed trying to get from A to B and winding up at >> >> >> >> > > C? I >> >> >> >> > > have. So far I have been going over some stuff by Sophocles. >> >> >> >> > > Epictetus, Zola, Marx&Engels, Huxley and Skinner (Determinists) >> >> >> >> > > but >> >> >> >> > > have to read Dostoyevsky and Hocking (Free Will). I think there >> >> >> >> > > is a >> >> >> >> > > difference between choice and free will. I make choices all the >> >> >> >> > > time >> >> >> >> > > but am not sure my will is really free. >> >> >> >> >> > > On Aug 8, 5:07 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > Ohh I disagree with this entirley Rigsy. >> >> >> >> >> > > > At the time the Minds says take action B, then we have made a >> >> >> >> > > > choice. >> >> >> >> > > > I question the ability of things to force a desicion from us >> >> >> >> > > > and I'l >> >> >> >> > > > ask once again is it possible for somebody to force anybody >> >> >> >> > > > into >> >> >> >> > > > makeing a choice that they do not want to? >> >> >> >> >> > > > On Aug 6, 2:22 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > I disagree that we possess or always have free will at our >> >> >> >> > > > > disposal- >> >> >> >> > > > > even the civil laws make distinctions. We are forced onto >> >> >> >> > > > > many paths >> >> >> >> > > > > and decisions- softly or harshly. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > On Aug 5, 2:04 pm, Allan Heretic <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> > > > > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it >> >> >> >> > > > > > created. It is the consequences of those choices that >> >> >> >> > > > > > can be a bitch, >> >> >> >> > > > > > Allan >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > On 4 aug. 2011, at 17:48, paradox <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> > > > > > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > There are a number of approaches to this question, Jo; >> >> >> >> > > > > > > but essentially >> >> >> >> > > > > > > and in summary (and i do a great injustice to a very >> >> >> >> > > > > > > powerful >> >> >> >> > > > > > > philosophical school), the deterministic tradition >> >> >> >> > > > > > > suggests that since >> >> >> >> > > > > > > we''re fundamentally bounded chemical systems immersed >> >> >> >> > > > > > > in a "sea" of >> >> >> >> > > > > > > ever more elaborate chemical processes, regulated by >> >> >> >> > > > > > > immutable >> >> >> >> > > > > > > (replicable and predictive) physical laws, and nothing >> >> >> >> > > > > > > else (which >> >> >> >> > > > > > > takes you back to the mind/brain question), our actions >> >> >> >> > > > > > > are no more >> >> >> >> > > > > > > than expressions of these chemical processes, >> >> >> >> > > > > > > constrained at an >> >> >> >> > > > > > > aggregate level by universal physical laws. When we >> >> >> >> > > > > > > think we make >> >> >> >> > > > > > > decisions based on choice, it is the mind "stroking" >> >> >> >> > > > > > > itself since, in >> >> >> >> > > > > > > terms of "proximate" action, we know that our decisions >> >> >> >> > > > > > > are preceeded >> >> >> >> > > > > > > in time by a neuro-electrcal "footprint" (interesting >> >> >> >> > > > > > > work by Benjamin >> >> >> >> > > > > > > Libet, presented in his book "Mind Time"); and in terms >> >> >> >> > > > > > > of more >> >> >> >> > > > > > > deliberative action, we are pretty certain to make the >> >> >> >> > > > > > > same decisions >> >> >> >> > > > > > > over and over again given the same set of variables, >> >> >> >> > > > > > > since our >> >> >> >> > > > > > > cognition is hard wired, and its operations are >> >> >> >> > > > > > > governed by the self >> >> >> >> > > > > > > same chemical processes and physical laws. Hence the >> >> >> >> > > > > > > question: do we >> >> >> >> > > > > > > have free will? and if we do, how much free will do we >> >> >> >> > > > > > > have? >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > On Aug 2, 7:44 pm, Jo <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > > >> I don't understand how some can say we don't have free >> >> >> >> > > > > > >> will. You can >> >> >> >> > > > > > >> choose to do anything you want at any given time. How >> >> >> >> > > > > > >> is that not free >> >> >> >> > > > > > >> will? >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >> On Aug 2, 12:51 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> "We have access to a technology that would have >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> looked like sorcery in >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> Descartes's day: the ability to peer inside someone's >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> head and read >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> their thoughts. Unfortunately, that doesn't take us >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> any nearer to >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> knowing whether they are sentient. "Even if you >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> measure brainwaves, >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> you can never know exactly what experience they >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> represent," says >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> psychologist Bruce Hood at the University of Bristol, >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> UK. If >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> anything, brain scanning has undermined Descartes's >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> maxim. You, too, >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> might be a zombie. "I happen to be one myself," says >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> Stanford >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> University philosopher Paul Skokowski. "And so, even >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> if you don't >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> realise it, are you." Skokowski's assertion is based >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> on the belief, >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> particularly common among neuroscientists who study >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> brain scans, that >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> we do not have free will. There is no ghost in the >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> machine; our >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> actions are driven by brain states that lie entirely >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> beyond our >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> control. "I think, therefore I am" might be an >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> illusion. >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> So, it may well be that you live in a computer >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> simulation in which you >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> are the only self-aware creature. I could well be a >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> zombie and so >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> could you. Have an interesting day." (from a recent >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> New Scientist) >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> We range over debates in free will and what it is to >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> be human. So far >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> we haven't established free will or even that we are >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> not merely >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> avatars in 'something else's game'. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> I wonder whether there are advantages in considering >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> ourselves as >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> creatures limited by programming and also capable of >> >> >> >> > > > > > >>> it?- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> >> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> >> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> >> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> >> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text -
