No, I believe in perfection. I only believe in truth. And that begins with us, as we are, before we start becoming that, which for want of a better term or phrase, I say, our own higher truth.
On Aug 11, 6:31 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > Books and various therapies aren't much good if you pursue them to > justify yourself or stall about insight and becoming. But each has or > hasn't got their own timetable. Plus when you consider how deeply > grooved some of the false teachings have been it can really be a > struggle to change. Plus you have to continue to confront those old > echoes. > > I don't think perfection is the goal, do you? > > On Aug 11, 4:45 am, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > RP, if you've followed the post... I seriously doubt you did... > > > It refers to self - reflection... whereby, with practice, one begins > > to gain more and more control over oneself. It's been with us for > > several millenia. All religions ordain the practice, more or less, > > though the practice itself has nothing to do with " religion." > > > My tirade was against the bookish people, who do not really > > contemplate the reality living within their own body, mind and > > intellect, and understand... and yet go ahead and pronounce profoundly > > depressing and weakening opinions based on what they read, see or > > hear, or suffer of themselves, and pass them off to others as " > > truths." What authority do they have to pass off their opinions, > > personal suffering, as " truths " ? > > > Since you've been touched on the raw, as to come back at me > > personally... are you one of the bookish types who pronounce without > > having any personal experience of what the truth is ? > > > On Aug 11, 7:20 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Vehement language , Vam , I don't think you have the authority to use > > > such words against others. Maybe , you are a great success but what > > > makes you think that all others having a determinist view are spent > > > people ? > > > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 1:57 AM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > "... if we can reflect upon ourselves- as > > > > an object- we have created distance from those markers-determiners- > > > > and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions." > > > > > This is the kind of experiential understanding and empowerment I was > > > > speaking of ! > > > > > Most people do not discover this. And if they do, they do not practice > > > > it enough to lead to empowerment. It is because of this that they > > > > continue to look upon themselves as programmed robots and automatons, > > > > and continue to doubt the clear measure of power they have to choose > > > > their beliefs, thoughts, words and action. Then they project it over > > > > entire humanity, as us all being some creation of some obscure god > > > > playing fiddle. Fking shit ! Such regressives should be barred from > > > > public activity, and sent to a correction facility instead. > > > > > On Aug 10, 5:53 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Well, Hocking made some sense to me about Free Will- though I could > > > >> read it again. It goes like this- if we can reflect upon ourselves- as > > > >> an object- we have created distance from those markers-determiners- > > > >> and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions. Reflection > > > >> is an endless process rather than fixed. But- "freedom is a matter of > > > >> degree". > > > > >> On Aug 10, 5:26 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> > Yes it does not mean that that they do not exist, but it does mean > > > >> > that this stance is as aI say a best guess, or perhaps we shall call > > > >> > it an inferance. > > > > >> > Yes again I belive that these markers may well be part of the > > > >> > desicion, yet you can still choose to act contrary to any of these > > > >> > markers. > > > > >> > If you are non violent you act in a violent mannor, if you are > > > >> > violent > > > >> > you can choose to not use violence. And what is a marker, is it a > > > >> > force or as the word suggests a marker? > > > > >> > On Aug 9, 10:23 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> > > We can point to many causes- our genes, mental and physical health > > > >> > > of > > > >> > > mother before, during and after pregnancy, early bonding and > > > >> > > childhood > > > >> > > development, placement in family, economic and social influences, > > > >> > > etc. > > > >> > > Even the country of birth and historical period matter. Reason > > > >> > > doesn't > > > >> > > kick in until around age seven and many early influences are > > > >> > > forgotten, misinterpreted or markers for life. The fact that one > > > >> > > cannot readily trace back to initial influences and causes does not > > > >> > > mean that they don't exist. At the moment of choice, I believe > > > >> > > these > > > >> > > markers are part of the decision- even if the decision is to reject > > > >> > > the influences and do the exact opposite of the past- like a child > > > >> > > who > > > >> > > swears he will be different than the parent but winds up being > > > >> > > similar > > > >> > > or tries to out-do the parent and fails. > > > > >> > > On Aug 9, 8:38 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> > > > Heh heh Rigsy. > > > > >> > > > Nope I think the deterministic stance is kinda like a best guess. > > > >> > > > I mean for us to be sure that our lives are determined we need to > > > >> > > > coreleate all causes. > > > > >> > > > Besides, I do not belive that cause and effect bars our freedom > > > >> > > > of > > > >> > > > choice. > > > > >> > > > On Aug 9, 12:41 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > One's will is shaped by numerous influences and experiences > > > >> > > > > therefore > > > >> > > > > it is determined. Notes from the Underground-D does not > > > >> > > > > convince me > > > >> > > > > otherwise. I'll see if Hocking can offer something. > > > > >> > > > > You really have to be a detective of self and follow choice > > > >> > > > > back to > > > >> > > > > its root cause. Maybe you are too young or busy! :-) > > > > >> > > > > On Aug 8, 6:12 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > Ahh then I see. I do not belive that choice and free will > > > >> > > > > > are > > > >> > > > > > seperate things at all. > > > > >> > > > > > Let us look at the words. > > > > >> > > > > > Free will. > > > > >> > > > > > The ability to chose in acordance with your will. > > > > >> > > > > > On Aug 8, 11:47 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > Haven't you noticed trying to get from A to B and winding > > > >> > > > > > > up at C? I > > > >> > > > > > > have. So far I have been going over some stuff by > > > >> > > > > > > Sophocles. > > > >> > > > > > > Epictetus, Zola, Marx&Engels, Huxley and Skinner > > > >> > > > > > > (Determinists) but > > > >> > > > > > > have to read Dostoyevsky and Hocking (Free Will). I think > > > >> > > > > > > there is a > > > >> > > > > > > difference between choice and free will. I make choices > > > >> > > > > > > all the time > > > >> > > > > > > but am not sure my will is really free. > > > > >> > > > > > > On Aug 8, 5:07 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> > > > >> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > Ohh I disagree with this entirley Rigsy. > > > > >> > > > > > > > At the time the Minds says take action B, then we have > > > >> > > > > > > > made a choice. > > > >> > > > > > > > I question the ability of things to force a desicion > > > >> > > > > > > > from us and I'l > > > >> > > > > > > > ask once again is it possible for somebody to force > > > >> > > > > > > > anybody into > > > >> > > > > > > > makeing a choice that they do not want to? > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2:22 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > I disagree that we possess or always have free will at > > > >> > > > > > > > > our disposal- > > > >> > > > > > > > > even the civil laws make distinctions. We are forced > > > >> > > > > > > > > onto many paths > > > >> > > > > > > > > and decisions- softly or harshly. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 2:04 pm, Allan Heretic <[email protected]> > > > >> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it > > > >> > > > > > > > > > created. It is the consequences of those choices > > > >> > > > > > > > > > that can be a bitch, > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Allan > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > On 4 aug. 2011, at 17:48, paradox > > > >> > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > There are a number of approaches to this question, > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Jo; but essentially > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > and in summary (and i do a great injustice to a > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > very powerful > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > philosophical school), the deterministic tradition > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > suggests that since > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > we''re fundamentally bounded chemical systems > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > immersed in a "sea" of > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ever more elaborate chemical processes, regulated > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > by immutable > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > (replicable and predictive) physical laws, and > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > nothing else (which > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > takes you back to the mind/brain question), our > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > actions are no more > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > than expressions of these chemical processes, > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > constrained at an > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > aggregate level by universal physical laws. When > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > we think we make > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > decisions based on choice, it is the mind > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > "stroking" itself since, in > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > terms of "proximate" action, we know that our > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > decisions are preceeded > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > in time by a neuro-electrcal "footprint" > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > (interesting work by Benjamin > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Libet, presented in his book "Mind Time"); and in > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > terms of more > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > deliberative action, we are pretty certain to make > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > the same decisions > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > over and over again given the same set of > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > variables, since our > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > cognition is hard wired, and its operations are > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > governed by the self > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > same chemical processes and physical laws. Hence > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > the question: do we > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > have free will? and if we do, how much free will > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > do we have? > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 2, 7:44 pm, Jo <[email protected]> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> I don't understand how some can say we don't have > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> free will. You can > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> choose to do anything you want at any given time. > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> How is that not free > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> will? > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> On Aug 2, 12:51 pm, archytas <[email protected]> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > ... > > read more »
