That isn't a matter of mere modern times. History is littered with monuments that have outlasted their creators. So, what will outlast the monuments ? The earth. And what will outlast the earth ? ... and so on.
On Aug 12, 1:11 pm, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote: > Vam, dear, in times of paternity tests searching for the truth that will > hopefully outlast your body is not restricted to the spiritual realm or the > afterworld anymore, you know. > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > Truth is a fact that abides, outlasts. > > > Fact is a truth of the moment. Even 1 + 1 could be 0, - ve, + 2, > > 11... > > How many times we ourselves have experienced it, when we have > > company ! > > > As a count, it of course equals 2. But what does it mean ? > > Ask the mother, whose one child dies, and then the second one too. > > The hospital / govt statistics would read 2. But for her it could mean > > ALL ! > > Or, an award by a law court could yield $ 4 million compensation ! ! > > > So, what does it mean ? > > Science / materialism / capitalism / consumerism reduces everything to > > count. > > Not what it means... for the meaning is always ours, to a particular > > person. > > And that's what is the most important thing ... for us. > > > What do words mean ? What do concepts and beliefs, facts and > > observations mean ? > > > What do we mean to ourself ? > > For on that would depend how we regard others, and ourself. > > > What we mean to ourself is evident in our emotions, thoughts and > > ideas, values and beliefs... > > > Are you aware of any " truth " that you " know " will outlast your > > body ? > > That is for us to search. > > > On Aug 12, 3:23 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > That's a relief! :-) > > > > But- what kind of truths are we talking about? That 2+2=4? Or art > > > forms that are spectacular and original? Or virtues? > > > > Your "higher truth" must exist with the many. The womb and the grave > > > are our only retreats. Therefore, it could be argued, that truth may > > > be compromised in order that the group/society can function without > > > discord and rancor. > > > > So- we are free to observe ourselves as separate and take stock of the > > > Self but in practical terms we are subject to social expectations. > > > > As for that cousin, Honesty, are people always honest and say what > > > they truly think? What is the purpose of a "white lie"? Children are > > > taught to lie lest they embarrass their parents, aren't they? Out of > > > the mouths of babes... > > > > I do think society/the media use various forms of "perfection" to > > > entice consumers from air-brushing faces and bodies to the latest > > > model of this and that so that desires are stirred or disappointments > > > are curdled. > > > > On Aug 11, 11:04 am, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Gosh ... error ... please read as : No, I DO NOT believe in > > > > perfection ... > > > > > On Aug 11, 8:55 pm, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > No, I believe in perfection. I only believe in truth. And that begins > > > > > with us, as we are, before we start becoming that, which for want of > > a > > > > > better term or phrase, I say, our own higher truth. > > > > > > On Aug 11, 6:31 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Books and various therapies aren't much good if you pursue them to > > > > > > justify yourself or stall about insight and becoming. But each has > > or > > > > > > hasn't got their own timetable. Plus when you consider how deeply > > > > > > grooved some of the false teachings have been it can really be a > > > > > > struggle to change. Plus you have to continue to confront those old > > > > > > echoes. > > > > > > > I don't think perfection is the goal, do you? > > > > > > > On Aug 11, 4:45 am, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > RP, if you've followed the post... I seriously doubt you did... > > > > > > > > It refers to self - reflection... whereby, with practice, one > > begins > > > > > > > to gain more and more control over oneself. It's been with us for > > > > > > > several millenia. All religions ordain the practice, more or > > less, > > > > > > > though the practice itself has nothing to do with " religion." > > > > > > > > My tirade was against the bookish people, who do not really > > > > > > > contemplate the reality living within their own body, mind and > > > > > > > intellect, and understand... and yet go ahead and pronounce > > profoundly > > > > > > > depressing and weakening opinions based on what they read, see or > > > > > > > hear, or suffer of themselves, and pass them off to others as " > > > > > > > truths." What authority do they have to pass off their opinions, > > > > > > > personal suffering, as " truths " ? > > > > > > > > Since you've been touched on the raw, as to come back at me > > > > > > > personally... are you one of the bookish types who pronounce > > without > > > > > > > having any personal experience of what the truth is ? > > > > > > > > On Aug 11, 7:20 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Vehement language , Vam , I don't think you have the authority > > to use > > > > > > > > such words against others. Maybe , you are a great success but > > what > > > > > > > > makes you think that all others having a determinist view are > > spent > > > > > > > > people ? > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 1:57 AM, Vam <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > "... if we can reflect upon ourselves- as > > > > > > > > > an object- we have created distance from those > > markers-determiners- > > > > > > > > > and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions." > > > > > > > > > > This is the kind of experiential understanding and > > empowerment I was > > > > > > > > > speaking of ! > > > > > > > > > > Most people do not discover this. And if they do, they do not > > practice > > > > > > > > > it enough to lead to empowerment. It is because of this that > > they > > > > > > > > > continue to look upon themselves as programmed robots and > > automatons, > > > > > > > > > and continue to doubt the clear measure of power they have to > > choose > > > > > > > > > their beliefs, thoughts, words and action. Then they project > > it over > > > > > > > > > entire humanity, as us all being some creation of some > > obscure god > > > > > > > > > playing fiddle. Fking shit ! Such regressives should be > > barred from > > > > > > > > > public activity, and sent to a correction facility instead. > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 10, 5:53 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Well, Hocking made some sense to me about Free Will- though > > I could > > > > > > > > >> read it again. It goes like this- if we can reflect upon > > ourselves- as > > > > > > > > >> an object- we have created distance from those > > markers-determiners- > > > > > > > > >> and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions. > > Reflection > > > > > > > > >> is an endless process rather than fixed. But- "freedom is a > > matter of > > > > > > > > >> degree". > > > > > > > > > >> On Aug 10, 5:26 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > Yes it does not mean that that they do not exist, but it > > does mean > > > > > > > > >> > that this stance is as aI say a best guess, or perhaps we > > shall call > > > > > > > > >> > it an inferance. > > > > > > > > > >> > Yes again I belive that these markers may well be part of > > the > > > > > > > > >> > desicion, yet you can still choose to act contrary to any > > of these > > > > > > > > >> > markers. > > > > > > > > > >> > If you are non violent you act in a violent mannor, if you > > are violent > > > > > > > > >> > you can choose to not use violence. And what is a marker, > > is it a > > > > > > > > >> > force or as the word suggests a marker? > > > > > > > > > >> > On Aug 9, 10:23 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > We can point to many causes- our genes, mental and > > physical health of > > > > > > > > >> > > mother before, during and after pregnancy, early bonding > > and childhood > > > > > > > > >> > > development, placement in family, economic and social > > influences, etc. > > > > > > > > >> > > Even the country of birth and historical period matter. > > Reason doesn't > > > > > > > > >> > > kick in until around age seven and many early influences > > are > > > > > > > > >> > > forgotten, misinterpreted or markers for life. The fact > > that one > > > > > > > > >> > > cannot readily trace back to initial influences and > > causes does not > > > > > > > > >> > > mean that they don't exist. At the moment of choice, I > > believe these > > > > > > > > >> > > markers are part of the decision- even if the decision > > is to reject > > > > > > > > >> > > the influences and do the exact opposite of the past- > > like a child who > > > > > > > > >> > > swears he will be different than the parent but winds up > > being similar > > > > > > > > >> > > or tries to out-do the parent and fails. > > > > > > > > > >> > > On Aug 9, 8:38 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Heh heh Rigsy. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Nope I think the deterministic stance is kinda like a > > best guess. > > > > > > > > >> > > > I mean for us to be sure that our lives are determined > > we need to > > > > > > > > >> > > > coreleate all causes. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Besides, I do not belive that cause and effect bars > > our freedom of > > > > > > > > >> > > > choice. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > On Aug 9, 12:41 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > One's will is shaped by numerous influences and > > experiences therefore > > > > > > > > >> > > > > it is determined. Notes from the Underground-D does > > not convince me > > > > > > > > >> > > > > otherwise. I'll see if Hocking can offer something. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > You really have to be a detective of self and follow > > choice back to > > > > > > > > >> > > > > its root cause. Maybe you are too young or busy! :-) > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > On Aug 8, 6:12 am, Lee Douglas < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Ahh then I see. I do not belive that choice and > > free will are > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > seperate things at all. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Let us look at the words. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Free will. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > The ability > > ... > > read more »
