Truth is a fact that abides, outlasts. Fact is a truth of the moment. Even 1 + 1 could be 0, - ve, + 2, 11... How many times we ourselves have experienced it, when we have company !
As a count, it of course equals 2. But what does it mean ? Ask the mother, whose one child dies, and then the second one too. The hospital / govt statistics would read 2. But for her it could mean ALL ! Or, an award by a law court could yield $ 4 million compensation ! ! So, what does it mean ? Science / materialism / capitalism / consumerism reduces everything to count. Not what it means... for the meaning is always ours, to a particular person. And that's what is the most important thing ... for us. What do words mean ? What do concepts and beliefs, facts and observations mean ? What do we mean to ourself ? For on that would depend how we regard others, and ourself. What we mean to ourself is evident in our emotions, thoughts and ideas, values and beliefs... Are you aware of any " truth " that you " know " will outlast your body ? That is for us to search. On Aug 12, 3:23 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > That's a relief! :-) > > But- what kind of truths are we talking about? That 2+2=4? Or art > forms that are spectacular and original? Or virtues? > > Your "higher truth" must exist with the many. The womb and the grave > are our only retreats. Therefore, it could be argued, that truth may > be compromised in order that the group/society can function without > discord and rancor. > > So- we are free to observe ourselves as separate and take stock of the > Self but in practical terms we are subject to social expectations. > > As for that cousin, Honesty, are people always honest and say what > they truly think? What is the purpose of a "white lie"? Children are > taught to lie lest they embarrass their parents, aren't they? Out of > the mouths of babes... > > I do think society/the media use various forms of "perfection" to > entice consumers from air-brushing faces and bodies to the latest > model of this and that so that desires are stirred or disappointments > are curdled. > > On Aug 11, 11:04 am, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Gosh ... error ... please read as : No, I DO NOT believe in > > perfection ... > > > On Aug 11, 8:55 pm, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > No, I believe in perfection. I only believe in truth. And that begins > > > with us, as we are, before we start becoming that, which for want of a > > > better term or phrase, I say, our own higher truth. > > > > On Aug 11, 6:31 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Books and various therapies aren't much good if you pursue them to > > > > justify yourself or stall about insight and becoming. But each has or > > > > hasn't got their own timetable. Plus when you consider how deeply > > > > grooved some of the false teachings have been it can really be a > > > > struggle to change. Plus you have to continue to confront those old > > > > echoes. > > > > > I don't think perfection is the goal, do you? > > > > > On Aug 11, 4:45 am, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > RP, if you've followed the post... I seriously doubt you did... > > > > > > It refers to self - reflection... whereby, with practice, one begins > > > > > to gain more and more control over oneself. It's been with us for > > > > > several millenia. All religions ordain the practice, more or less, > > > > > though the practice itself has nothing to do with " religion." > > > > > > My tirade was against the bookish people, who do not really > > > > > contemplate the reality living within their own body, mind and > > > > > intellect, and understand... and yet go ahead and pronounce profoundly > > > > > depressing and weakening opinions based on what they read, see or > > > > > hear, or suffer of themselves, and pass them off to others as " > > > > > truths." What authority do they have to pass off their opinions, > > > > > personal suffering, as " truths " ? > > > > > > Since you've been touched on the raw, as to come back at me > > > > > personally... are you one of the bookish types who pronounce without > > > > > having any personal experience of what the truth is ? > > > > > > On Aug 11, 7:20 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Vehement language , Vam , I don't think you have the authority to > > > > > > use > > > > > > such words against others. Maybe , you are a great success but what > > > > > > makes you think that all others having a determinist view are spent > > > > > > people ? > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 1:57 AM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > "... if we can reflect upon ourselves- as > > > > > > > an object- we have created distance from those > > > > > > > markers-determiners- > > > > > > > and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions." > > > > > > > > This is the kind of experiential understanding and empowerment I > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > speaking of ! > > > > > > > > Most people do not discover this. And if they do, they do not > > > > > > > practice > > > > > > > it enough to lead to empowerment. It is because of this that they > > > > > > > continue to look upon themselves as programmed robots and > > > > > > > automatons, > > > > > > > and continue to doubt the clear measure of power they have to > > > > > > > choose > > > > > > > their beliefs, thoughts, words and action. Then they project it > > > > > > > over > > > > > > > entire humanity, as us all being some creation of some obscure god > > > > > > > playing fiddle. Fking shit ! Such regressives should be barred > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > public activity, and sent to a correction facility instead. > > > > > > > > On Aug 10, 5:53 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > >> Well, Hocking made some sense to me about Free Will- though I > > > > > > >> could > > > > > > >> read it again. It goes like this- if we can reflect upon > > > > > > >> ourselves- as > > > > > > >> an object- we have created distance from those > > > > > > >> markers-determiners- > > > > > > >> and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions. > > > > > > >> Reflection > > > > > > >> is an endless process rather than fixed. But- "freedom is a > > > > > > >> matter of > > > > > > >> degree". > > > > > > > >> On Aug 10, 5:26 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > Yes it does not mean that that they do not exist, but it does > > > > > > >> > mean > > > > > > >> > that this stance is as aI say a best guess, or perhaps we > > > > > > >> > shall call > > > > > > >> > it an inferance. > > > > > > > >> > Yes again I belive that these markers may well be part of the > > > > > > >> > desicion, yet you can still choose to act contrary to any of > > > > > > >> > these > > > > > > >> > markers. > > > > > > > >> > If you are non violent you act in a violent mannor, if you are > > > > > > >> > violent > > > > > > >> > you can choose to not use violence. And what is a marker, is > > > > > > >> > it a > > > > > > >> > force or as the word suggests a marker? > > > > > > > >> > On Aug 9, 10:23 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > We can point to many causes- our genes, mental and physical > > > > > > >> > > health of > > > > > > >> > > mother before, during and after pregnancy, early bonding and > > > > > > >> > > childhood > > > > > > >> > > development, placement in family, economic and social > > > > > > >> > > influences, etc. > > > > > > >> > > Even the country of birth and historical period matter. > > > > > > >> > > Reason doesn't > > > > > > >> > > kick in until around age seven and many early influences are > > > > > > >> > > forgotten, misinterpreted or markers for life. The fact that > > > > > > >> > > one > > > > > > >> > > cannot readily trace back to initial influences and causes > > > > > > >> > > does not > > > > > > >> > > mean that they don't exist. At the moment of choice, I > > > > > > >> > > believe these > > > > > > >> > > markers are part of the decision- even if the decision is to > > > > > > >> > > reject > > > > > > >> > > the influences and do the exact opposite of the past- like a > > > > > > >> > > child who > > > > > > >> > > swears he will be different than the parent but winds up > > > > > > >> > > being similar > > > > > > >> > > or tries to out-do the parent and fails. > > > > > > > >> > > On Aug 9, 8:38 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> > > > > > > >> > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > Heh heh Rigsy. > > > > > > > >> > > > Nope I think the deterministic stance is kinda like a best > > > > > > >> > > > guess. > > > > > > >> > > > I mean for us to be sure that our lives are determined we > > > > > > >> > > > need to > > > > > > >> > > > coreleate all causes. > > > > > > > >> > > > Besides, I do not belive that cause and effect bars our > > > > > > >> > > > freedom of > > > > > > >> > > > choice. > > > > > > > >> > > > On Aug 9, 12:41 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > One's will is shaped by numerous influences and > > > > > > >> > > > > experiences therefore > > > > > > >> > > > > it is determined. Notes from the Underground-D does not > > > > > > >> > > > > convince me > > > > > > >> > > > > otherwise. I'll see if Hocking can offer something. > > > > > > > >> > > > > You really have to be a detective of self and follow > > > > > > >> > > > > choice back to > > > > > > >> > > > > its root cause. Maybe you are too young or busy! :-) > > > > > > > >> > > > > On Aug 8, 6:12 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> > > > > > > >> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Ahh then I see. I do not belive that choice and free > > > > > > >> > > > > > will are > > > > > > >> > > > > > seperate things at all. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Let us look at the words. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Free will. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > The ability to chose in acordance with your will. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Aug 8, 11:47 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Haven't you noticed trying to get from A to B and > > > > > > >> > > > > > > winding up at C? I > > > > > > >> > > > > > > have. So far I have been going over some stuff by > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Sophocles. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Epictetus, Zola, Marx&Engels, Huxley and Skinner > > > > > > >> > > > > > > (Determinists) but > > > > > > >> > > > > > > have to read Dostoyevsky and Hocking (Free Will). I > > > > > > >> > > > > > > think there is a > > > > > > >> > > > > > > difference between choice and free will. I make > > > > > > >> > > > > > > choices all the time > > > > > > >> > > > > > > but am not sure my will is really free. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Aug 8, 5:07 am, Lee Douglas > > > > > > >> > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Ohh I disagree with this entirley Rigsy. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > At the time the Minds says take action B, then we > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > have made a choice. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I question the ability of things to force a > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > desicion from us and I'l > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ask once again is it possible for somebody to > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > force anybody into > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > makeing a choice that they do not want to? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2:22 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > I disagree that we possess or always have free > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > will at our disposal- > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > even the civil laws make distinctions. We are > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > forced onto many paths > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > and decisions- softly or harshly. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 2:04 pm, Allan Heretic > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > You lays have free will no matter how you > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > seeing it created. It is the consequences of > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > those choices that can be a bitch, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > On 4 aug. 2011, at 17:48, paradox > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > ... > > read more »
