Yes I can agree that freedom is matter of degrees.
On Aug 10, 1:53 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > Well, Hocking made some sense to me about Free Will- though I could > read it again. It goes like this- if we can reflect upon ourselves- as > an object- we have created distance from those markers-determiners- > and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions. Reflection > is an endless process rather than fixed. But- "freedom is a matter of > degree". > > On Aug 10, 5:26 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Yes it does not mean that that they do not exist, but it does mean > > that this stance is as aI say a best guess, or perhaps we shall call > > it an inferance. > > > Yes again I belive that these markers may well be part of the > > desicion, yet you can still choose to act contrary to any of these > > markers. > > > If you are non violent you act in a violent mannor, if you are violent > > you can choose to not use violence. And what is a marker, is it a > > force or as the word suggests a marker? > > > On Aug 9, 10:23 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > We can point to many causes- our genes, mental and physical health of > > > mother before, during and after pregnancy, early bonding and childhood > > > development, placement in family, economic and social influences, etc. > > > Even the country of birth and historical period matter. Reason doesn't > > > kick in until around age seven and many early influences are > > > forgotten, misinterpreted or markers for life. The fact that one > > > cannot readily trace back to initial influences and causes does not > > > mean that they don't exist. At the moment of choice, I believe these > > > markers are part of the decision- even if the decision is to reject > > > the influences and do the exact opposite of the past- like a child who > > > swears he will be different than the parent but winds up being similar > > > or tries to out-do the parent and fails. > > > > On Aug 9, 8:38 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Heh heh Rigsy. > > > > > Nope I think the deterministic stance is kinda like a best guess. > > > > I mean for us to be sure that our lives are determined we need to > > > > coreleate all causes. > > > > > Besides, I do not belive that cause and effect bars our freedom of > > > > choice. > > > > > On Aug 9, 12:41 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > One's will is shaped by numerous influences and experiences therefore > > > > > it is determined. Notes from the Underground-D does not convince me > > > > > otherwise. I'll see if Hocking can offer something. > > > > > > You really have to be a detective of self and follow choice back to > > > > > its root cause. Maybe you are too young or busy! :-) > > > > > > On Aug 8, 6:12 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Ahh then I see. I do not belive that choice and free will are > > > > > > seperate things at all. > > > > > > > Let us look at the words. > > > > > > > Free will. > > > > > > > The ability to chose in acordance with your will. > > > > > > > On Aug 8, 11:47 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Haven't you noticed trying to get from A to B and winding up at > > > > > > > C? I > > > > > > > have. So far I have been going over some stuff by Sophocles. > > > > > > > Epictetus, Zola, Marx&Engels, Huxley and Skinner (Determinists) > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > have to read Dostoyevsky and Hocking (Free Will). I think there > > > > > > > is a > > > > > > > difference between choice and free will. I make choices all the > > > > > > > time > > > > > > > but am not sure my will is really free. > > > > > > > > On Aug 8, 5:07 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ohh I disagree with this entirley Rigsy. > > > > > > > > > At the time the Minds says take action B, then we have made a > > > > > > > > choice. > > > > > > > > I question the ability of things to force a desicion from us > > > > > > > > and I'l > > > > > > > > ask once again is it possible for somebody to force anybody into > > > > > > > > makeing a choice that they do not want to? > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2:22 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I disagree that we possess or always have free will at our > > > > > > > > > disposal- > > > > > > > > > even the civil laws make distinctions. We are forced onto > > > > > > > > > many paths > > > > > > > > > and decisions- softly or harshly. > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 2:04 pm, Allan Heretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it > > > > > > > > > > created. It is the consequences of those choices that can > > > > > > > > > > be a bitch, > > > > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > > > > > On 4 aug. 2011, at 17:48, paradox <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > There are a number of approaches to this question, Jo; > > > > > > > > > > > but essentially > > > > > > > > > > > and in summary (and i do a great injustice to a very > > > > > > > > > > > powerful > > > > > > > > > > > philosophical school), the deterministic tradition > > > > > > > > > > > suggests that since > > > > > > > > > > > we''re fundamentally bounded chemical systems immersed in > > > > > > > > > > > a "sea" of > > > > > > > > > > > ever more elaborate chemical processes, regulated by > > > > > > > > > > > immutable > > > > > > > > > > > (replicable and predictive) physical laws, and nothing > > > > > > > > > > > else (which > > > > > > > > > > > takes you back to the mind/brain question), our actions > > > > > > > > > > > are no more > > > > > > > > > > > than expressions of these chemical processes, constrained > > > > > > > > > > > at an > > > > > > > > > > > aggregate level by universal physical laws. When we think > > > > > > > > > > > we make > > > > > > > > > > > decisions based on choice, it is the mind "stroking" > > > > > > > > > > > itself since, in > > > > > > > > > > > terms of "proximate" action, we know that our decisions > > > > > > > > > > > are preceeded > > > > > > > > > > > in time by a neuro-electrcal "footprint" (interesting > > > > > > > > > > > work by Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > > Libet, presented in his book "Mind Time"); and in terms > > > > > > > > > > > of more > > > > > > > > > > > deliberative action, we are pretty certain to make the > > > > > > > > > > > same decisions > > > > > > > > > > > over and over again given the same set of variables, > > > > > > > > > > > since our > > > > > > > > > > > cognition is hard wired, and its operations are governed > > > > > > > > > > > by the self > > > > > > > > > > > same chemical processes and physical laws. Hence the > > > > > > > > > > > question: do we > > > > > > > > > > > have free will? and if we do, how much free will do we > > > > > > > > > > > have? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 2, 7:44 pm, Jo <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't understand how some can say we don't have free > > > > > > > > > > >> will. You can > > > > > > > > > > >> choose to do anything you want at any given time. How is > > > > > > > > > > >> that not free > > > > > > > > > > >> will? > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Aug 2, 12:51 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>> "We have access to a technology that would have looked > > > > > > > > > > >>> like sorcery in > > > > > > > > > > >>> Descartes's day: the ability to peer inside someone's > > > > > > > > > > >>> head and read > > > > > > > > > > >>> their thoughts. Unfortunately, that doesn't take us any > > > > > > > > > > >>> nearer to > > > > > > > > > > >>> knowing whether they are sentient. "Even if you measure > > > > > > > > > > >>> brainwaves, > > > > > > > > > > >>> you can never know exactly what experience they > > > > > > > > > > >>> represent," says > > > > > > > > > > >>> psychologist Bruce Hood at the University of Bristol, > > > > > > > > > > >>> UK. If > > > > > > > > > > >>> anything, brain scanning has undermined Descartes's > > > > > > > > > > >>> maxim. You, too, > > > > > > > > > > >>> might be a zombie. "I happen to be one myself," says > > > > > > > > > > >>> Stanford > > > > > > > > > > >>> University philosopher Paul Skokowski. "And so, even if > > > > > > > > > > >>> you don't > > > > > > > > > > >>> realise it, are you." Skokowski's assertion is based on > > > > > > > > > > >>> the belief, > > > > > > > > > > >>> particularly common among neuroscientists who study > > > > > > > > > > >>> brain scans, that > > > > > > > > > > >>> we do not have free will. There is no ghost in the > > > > > > > > > > >>> machine; our > > > > > > > > > > >>> actions are driven by brain states that lie entirely > > > > > > > > > > >>> beyond our > > > > > > > > > > >>> control. "I think, therefore I am" might be an illusion. > > > > > > > > > > >>> So, it may well be that you live in a computer > > > > > > > > > > >>> simulation in which you > > > > > > > > > > >>> are the only self-aware creature. I could well be a > > > > > > > > > > >>> zombie and so > > > > > > > > > > >>> could you. Have an interesting day." (from a recent New > > > > > > > > > > >>> Scientist) > > > > > > > > > > > >>> We range over debates in free will and what it is to be > > > > > > > > > > >>> human. So far > > > > > > > > > > >>> we haven't established free will or even that we are > > > > > > > > > > >>> not merely > > > > > > > > > > >>> avatars in 'something else's game'. > > > > > > > > > > > >>> I wonder whether there are advantages in considering > > > > > > > > > > >>> ourselves as > > > > > > > > > > >>> creatures limited by programming and also capable of > > > > > > > > > > >>> it?- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
