I think we should go back to Barter, what better way then to get everyone to not depend on the economy... I don't know just a thought
On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:54 AM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > How so, elitist? Isn't economics a reflection of self and national > interest? Freedom is a broad term as I think there are mutiple sources > for which we owe gratitude. Sometimes trouble and hardship wind up > being "teachers". Or reversed mirrors. The trick is to survive to that > point of recognition.//I often use a set of scales (like Justice) when > I pray and when trouble or sorrow overwhelm, I place them on one scale > and put the blessings and gifts on another and they usually balance > out. But I have been a survivor type in a wealthy country basically at > peace- or distant wars- unlike many in this world- for that, what do > you suggest would correct the terrible inbalance? Maybe it does rest > in the Serenity Prayer- we change the things we can. > > On Oct 30, 11:39 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > Sorry about the lapsed video link. They are around on the net. I > > suspect the machine is banking and war and we suppose it something > > other. I'm not sure we are free as rigsy says - rather just lucky to > > be free of interesting times. I was thinking of Camus watching some > > stuff on OccupyX - > http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/10/ows-guest-post-denver-police-u... > > > > High in the list of my values is the treatment of others (which in a > > sense is elitist) and I don't believe current economics provides > > much. It seems to me many have forgotten that their freedoms were won > > bu others, > > > > On Oct 30, 11:55 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > "Even God cannot change the past." Agathon (448 B.C.-400 B.C.) > > > > > We are eventually free to establish our own values and lifestyle- if > > > we are lucky- and it sounds as if you are one of the lucky ones as we > > > type on computers constructed via slave labor to communicate our > > > opinions and struggles. > > > > > Around the beginning of the 20th Century, manufacturers accepted the > > > idea of making products that would soon be obsolete and need to be > > > replaced rather than repaired which has resulted in a toss-away > > > consumer society that is drenched in wastefulness. I think the idea > > > was first promoted by advertisers who were eager for steady income. > > > Replacement has become a broader fact- from mates to warfare. > > > > > On Oct 29, 11:01 pm, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I don't recall the exact quote from Camus, Neil, in his "Rebel"... > > > > > > We are living in times when the same usurpers, oligarchs, power > > > > brokers, Free Capitalists and State Capitalists... use values that > > > > appeal to people, take positions that make people feel good, espouse > > > > causes and show generosities... when all that is on their mind is how > > > > to extract more from the people, how to make laws more capital, > > > > priviledged and owner friendly ( yeah, the fkg Motor Act in India is > > > > still of colonial vantage, when the motors on the roads were owned > > > > mainly by the British... you don't need to commit any murders at all, > > > > just mow them on the road, and escape with at most as light a > sentence > > > > as mere 2 years of simple imprisonment ! ), how to consolidate and > > > > cartelise the supply chain or distribution structures for essential > > > > commodities, so as to create scarcities and raise prices at will... > > > > control power... control money... control legislation... control > > > > supply and demand... control... > > > > > > As a result, people have come to believe that the 80% of the economy > > > > looped in to serve 20% of the population is alright, that > millionaires > > > > constituting 50% of People's Representatives is alright, that there > is > > > > something sacrosanct about property and shall-do-as-I-wish rights, > > > > that accepting money means that people have to surrender their > freedom > > > > and needless dignity, that basketfuls of cake and food reject in > waste > > > > bin from wealthy mansions is okay when thousands are hungry... and if > > > > you stand to question and protest over such gross social inequality, > > > > such political misrepresentation, such blatant economic inequity... > > > > you are actually shown the law, the law and order enforcement might, > > > > the feudal norms and ethics, and told "look at the others, how they > > > > are not about creating problems" ! > > > > > > You then have only one option... which you will soon be advised even > > > > by your parents and well-wishers... to join them. After all, even you > > > > have it all... if you study and work hard, with dedication... et al. > > > > > > The fun starts, rather the mayhem, when you see no reason to join > > > > them, to have all that "they" have. At that stage you have already > > > > discovered the new paradigm for yourself. It happened with me in > > > > 1997... when I looked up to my boss' position and clearly saw that I > > > > didn't want it ! Lived hand to mouth for about 2 years... made > demands > > > > on friends without a qualm... until the consulting work got > > > > acknowledged... and then I've practically retired for an otherwise > > > > very active life. > > > > > > On Oct 30, 4:32 am, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Sorry your video is currently not available.. will try later I > did some > > > > > looking up to understand the raping of Nang I have actually known > about for > > > > > a long time ,, seems even before the internet why I don't recall > any more.. > > > > > Maybe it is from the horrible abuse and treatment of the american > Indian > > > > > by my own government. and other minorities.. > > > > > > > I think people want to believe the soft sell packaged lies.. > people > > > > > apparently prefer to live in fear and accept lies rather than > face the > > > > > truth.. as for governments that color truth worse is it the USA or > > > > > Great Britain? Both Countries seem to bury their heads in the sand > when it > > > > > comes to coloring their history. still am trying to figure out > > > > > the British empire. > > > > > > > Hopefully the Occupy Movement will have some effect positive I > hope if the > > > > > one percent want to control the wealth and government they at > least to > > > > > bear their fair share of the expenses based on percentage of > ownership. > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 7:51 PM, archytas <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > The current crisis is not one of banking or economics, but > something > > > > > > much more basic. One might say this is our attitude towards > 'machines > > > > > > of loving grace'. In short, we live in the fantasy that "the > machine" > > > > > > will put things right, returning to an equilibrium as our > > > > > > interventions are little more than 'of mice and men'. The real > world > > > > > > of the environment and the exchange world of economics return to > > > > > > equilibrium after fluctuations. It's very tempting to believe > this - > > > > > > one might see Gaia as a case in point - the planet and other > species > > > > > > flourishing after we've crazed ourselves to extinction through > > > > > > consumption and wars. > > > > > > > > You can pick up the ideas of 'all watched over by machines of > loving > > > > > > grace' here - > > > > > > > http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/2160186460/All-Watched-Over-By-M... > > > > > > > > A review with an economic twist can be found here - > > > > > > > http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/10/the-natural-chaos-of-markets.html > > > > > > > > My own work has often focused on the difference between espoused > > > > > > theories and theories-in-action. In some subjects like > chemistry the > > > > > > relationship between theory and practice is good - if you follow > the > > > > > > rules and recipes you get what you intended and the explanations > make > > > > > > sense if you study enough. There is a working core, you can > trust or > > > > > > check the work of others and speculation can eventually be > tested on > > > > > > what is not accepted as 'settled'. In the human sciences this > is much > > > > > > more difficult, not least because we do not exclude much in human > > > > > > society that prevents science. Few of us have much aptitude for > > > > > > science, perhaps especially for its negation of ideology soaked > up > > > > > > from community. > > > > > > > > I always noted as a teacher that I was more comfortable saying > 'you > > > > > > just can't handle the maths' (unlikely for me as I'd teach > people like > > > > > > that without the stuff), than in saying 'you just don't get > argument > > > > > > because you can't let go of any prejudice'. Teaching people to > think > > > > > > for themselves contains a paradox. One finds much one is > expected to > > > > > > teach based on dross. I know of no country in which history is > taught > > > > > > without gross ideological distortion. We hear the Japanese rip > out > > > > > > pages in textbooks on the 'rape of Nanking' yet it's rare to find > > > > > > Brits who know much of our squalid imperialism and involvement > in much > > > > > > similar. In the middle east you will find a more accurate > picture of > > > > > > the Crusades than we get, but the Jihad that is the mirror image > is > > > > > > revered. > > > > > > > > Most people like to imagine themselves as individual, but if > we're > > > > > > honest we are subjects of machines of loving grace. One makes > one's > > > > > > way in an economy (machine) on a planet (environmental machine). > I > > > > > > think these are only "machines" because we don't examine them. > > > > > > Examination often ends in paradox - logical positivism eventually > > > > > > conceded its own quest to extirpate metaphysics was - oops - > > > > > > metaphysical. My own guess is that rigorous thinking seeks to > > > > > > discover and eliminate dross - this involves a great deal of > courage > > > > > > in accepting you are likely made of same oneself! > > > > > > > > I'm a maverick systems theorist and conceive of our > social-political > > > > > > arguments (and the systems themselves) as houses of cards. one > looks > > > > > > for the soft spots that can bring the lot down or as places to > put in > > > > > > effort to keep the ball rolling. No argument survives this > process > > > > > > more than twenty seconds with such soft spots arising. Most > don't > > > > > > have either the energy or tools to keep going and run to the > 'bliss' > > > > > > of the machine (religion, patriotism, left and right etc.). We > are > > > > > > thus robots of one 'machine' or another, not individuals, hardly > > > > > > people if we're not careful. > > > > > > > -- > > > > > ( > > > > > ) > > > > > |_D Allan > > > > > > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - >
