I think my question had a bit of what is literally lying to us in simple morality. I was watching a piece on Versailles earlier and was struck how many "human" fetishes have animal forms like Bowery birds, peacocks and even 'slavery' in ants. I wonder whether the 'lie' is that the economy must be libidinal..
On Feb 4, 2:24 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > There may also be an element of curiousity in our nature...back to > that juicy apple, Eve & Adam...or that we are clever enough to beat > the odds. What would happen to repentance and striving to be a better > person? Do our sins create us as much as our virtues? > > On Feb 4, 12:18 am, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Was watching " The Scent Of A Woman " yesterday. Pacino is late middle > > age, blind and yet very ' military ' in how he sounds. Towards the > > end, he's in New York during Thanksgiving with a high school > > youngster, Charlie, who has been charged by school authorities with > > grave misconduct along with few others. Since an indictment by the > > School Committee would be huge setback to his further studies, he is > > caught in a bind at a luring proposal to gain admission in Harvard if > > he would squeal on others. The other co-accused are heirs to much > > influence and money, which were actually at work then upon school > > authorities and Committee members to go lenient. > > > But, in New York, Pacino is finished with his plans for the visit and > > is about to end his life, of which he believes he has had his fill. > > And, Charlie can't get over the call of his conscience, not to squeal > > despite considerable personal loss. Days later, at the trial before > > assembled students and teachers, Charlie stays his ground and the > > influential are confident of getting away, when Pacino enters, takes > > stage, and says : > > > " At every crossroads in his life, I have always known the right path > > to take. But I didn't. You know why ? Because it was too damned hard. > > > " Charlie is at one such crossroad. He has chosen to take the right > > path. Let us help him along. " > > > That's the only reason we are not honest, fair, sincere, compassionate > > and sharing... 1) We do not what is the right thing to do, not just > > for ourself. And 2) It's too damned hard to do the right thing, when > > there are scores of easier paths to take. > > > On Feb 3, 8:42 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I've ceased to believe that corruption stems from the top or that the > > > good leader is as Vam states (though this would be very welcome in > > > practice). I've generally held to Harry Bosch's (Michael Connelly > > > detective) motto 'everyone counts or no one does' in my work. I > > > suspect in me this comes from Xtian stories. If we want decent people > > > at the top one would expect the values Vam espouses to be those valued > > > and practiced throughout - in fact we laud something else altogether. > > > I go with a lot rigsy says on the problem being based in apparently > > > innocuous practices. Further on, imagine joining a political party > > > with the idea of becoming a councillor or MP (etc.) It's a total > > > pain and its also not too hard to imagine how easy it is for money > > > (and potentially the interests of other governments) can influence the > > > early selection of candidates. The very structures of organising play > > > their part - and deeper my guess is we don't need the kind of > > > leadership that arises in these systems and that is more to do with > > > our primate past than we know. > > > > On Feb 3, 12:46 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Kennedy was also involved in illegal something or other in the stock > > > > market- one reason he got that financial position is that he knew how > > > > to manipulate it. Anyway, could never figure his attachment to Gloria > > > > Swanson (yikes!) while Rose had child after child and retreated to her > > > > rosary. Well- maybe a rosary is less stressful. :-) > > > > > On Feb 3, 1:04 am, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Hmmm that sounds like the much like the US congress.. itis strange > > > > > how > > > > > they amass massive fortunes on a $400,000.oo salaries. {I know Joe > > > > > Kennedy > > > > > was in the whiskery trade > > > > > when it was on the illegal side. > > > > > > the amounts of fortunes politicians gain has got to be comming from > > > > > some > > > > > place .. It is good to hear that Detroit is changing, although I > > > > > think the > > > > > crooks are just out side the door waiting. Maybe all politicians > > > > > should > > > > > have to disclose property and finances for their entire families on a > > > > > yearly basis making tose record public.. and a department where > > > > > citizens can go to have the questionable investigated. Corruption in > > > > > politics is rampant in the US. > > > > > Allan > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 11:28 PM, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Literally hits home for me, Neil, as Detroit becomes the first US > > > > > > city > > > > > > to go bankrupt after years of accepted corruption by a gang of > > > > > > politicians and cronies accepted by voters until the Feds came in > > > > > > and > > > > > > the ousting began (thanks to actions by the press, not the Feds > > > > > > initially.) What is it in each of us that needs to cheat, condemn, > > > > > > lie, engage cruelty, gossip, etc., Why does it all inspire more of > > > > > > the same in a group? How do we stop it? Good questions. The > > > > > > answer > > > > > > to the question "where to begin" might be revealing. > > > > > > > On Feb 2, 8:39 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Much to agree with on what we might call fudge and mudge. Things > > > > > > > certainly seem to have become much worse as the business model > > > > > > > and its > > > > > > > people have moved in. What I want to know more about is what > > > > > > > facilitates the corruption and, of course, what might bring it to > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > end. This should be a key issue in organisational design, but > > > > > > > anti- > > > > > > > corruption becomes a self-serving bureaucracy in-itself, often > > > > > > > preventing the actual desired purpose. > > > > > > > > One of the naive issues ejucation is replete with is teaching the > > > > > > > right way to do things without reference to what goes on in actual > > > > > > > work situations and power-relations. Many of us respond with some > > > > > > > distress to standard philosophical considerations where the > > > > > > > argument > > > > > > > made is only possible because of what is excluded. In business > > > > > > > ejucation this is referred to as the learning transfer problem - > > > > > > > these > > > > > > > days no one dares to say the 'learning material' itself is a load > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > tosh (shades of the worst of religion). My mature students, > > > > > > > always a > > > > > > > source of inspiration, have often said they enjoy being able to > > > > > > > debate > > > > > > > critical concerns and that they hope I don't expect them to take > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > into the workplace where this would be an effective job-suicide > > > > > > > note. > > > > > > > > Whistle-blowers are now being paid off through compromise > > > > > > > agreements > > > > > > > even in bodies responsible for supervising complaints and > > > > > > > standards. > > > > > > > "Harmony" is a hair spray rigsy! Not a bad metaphor for what gets > > > > > > > sprayed over the problems. My feeling is the rotten orchard needs > > > > > > > something stronger. The situation is 'Emperor's New Clothes', > > > > > > > but I'm > > > > > > > afraid the child's voice ending and everything fine after that > > > > > > > can't > > > > > > > work. > > > > > > > > I'm not concerned much on a personal basis, largely on what Molly > > > > > > > says. I suspect the stuff of this corruption prevents almost all > > > > > > > practical argument and is what science excludes from its > > > > > > > considerations. > > > > > > > > On Feb 2, 12:32 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Yes- it is about harmony- understanding it and finding it. > > > > > > > > > On Feb 2, 5:44 am, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I can see that my sense of morality has changed over the > > > > > > > > > years along > > > > > > > > > with my relationship to life. Yet at the core of it, is a > > > > > > > > > sense of > > > > > > > > > self respect that allowed me to walk away from a couple of > > > > > > > > > decent > > > > > > > > > incomes and destructive human relationships because of the > > > > > > > > > culture of > > > > > > > > > war they brought with them. Somehow, expressing truth in the > > > > > > > > > moment > > > > > > > > > was never enough, the war raged on. In retrospect, I can see > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > what I was walking to when walking away was far better, but > > > > > > > > > at the > > > > > > > > > time, the path was forming as my foot hit the exit doorway in > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > walking away. I've never been comfortable in that scenario, > > > > > > > > > but I > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > now see it has payed off for me in the long run. It always > > > > > > > > > starts > > > > > > > > > with listening to my gut. > > > > > > > > > > An interesting time we live in, with our education, political > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > financial systems no longer serving us. With eyes blurred > > > > > > > > > from Rome > > > > > > > > > burning, it is hard to see what is coming for us. What I do > > > > > > > > > know is > > > > > > > > > we are a resilient lot, and something will. The education > > > > > > > > > system > > > > > > does > > > > > > > > > suck, my youngest is still in University and has always > > > > > > > > > struggled > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > the system. He will get his BA in May with honors, something > > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > never > > > > > > > > > experienced in the younger grades. Somehow, he made it work > > > > > > > > > out of a > > > > > > > > > desire for a good life. > > > > > > > > > > Myself, I found a way to make it work while still doing my > > > > > > > > > own thing > > > > > > > > > in the University, but after being told by the English Dept > > > > > > > > > to find a > > > > > > > > > different course of study. I was lucky that there was a more > > > > > > creative > > > > > > > > > "alternative" available or I would probably have quit. I did > > > > > > > > > see > > > > > > > > > (what seemed to me) the brightest teachers struggling with the > > > > > > > > > bureaucracy of their profession. But it seems to me we all > > > > > > > > > struggle > > > > > > > > > with that, even my husband, the Chiropractor, who is in > > > > > > > > > practice by > > > > > > > > > himself. If we live in community, we adapt to the rules, > > > > > > > > > regs, > > > > > > norms, > > ... > > read more »
