This one might appeal to Gabby. It's from a study into the creation of mouse hierarchy.
On Thursday, 16 October 2014 11:42:45 UTC+1, Molly wrote: > > Indeed, Neil, this is the rebellion that brings along with it the promise > of heaven on earth. "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father > in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." The Rosicrucians > created a religions sect based on crossing that threshold of separation. > > On Thursday, October 16, 2014 5:25:59 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >> >> Mastering the obvious might be one of the skills. Under the radar feels >> as right as pablum and naked clothing. The Stoics had good arguments >> against slavery - the speed of the spiritual can seem slow. I've been >> thinking quite a lot about the 'social model of disability' of late - odd >> in a way as I don't think it works for disability. The idea in its strong >> sense is that society rather than impairment creates disability. Much to >> be said for this in a weaker form - one only has to think of stairs and >> someone in a wheelchair. In a broader sense, we see a lot of disabling >> techniques in biological networks - parasites can even cause sterility in >> mushrooms - and even in insect workers there is a caste system based on >> aggression (nine levels in some ants) - we see similar in mammals and >> humans. >> >> Molly's words are quite brilliant and we should not neglect the efforts >> of those who have tried - indeed we could do with much better >> understandings of how such as women's equality have come about. The sword >> and musket bit of me might still want a place on Allan's boat. >> >> Thermodynamics (in modern form) is really about 'what works and what >> won't'. The modern form, in some ways, is a reaction against 'creation >> events' to get better understanding of how events are constructed without >> the constraints of big bang. There are attempts to apply this to the way >> we live, to understand the 'flows'. The economics we have is mostly a >> block to doing the right things - within it, Allan's plan needs the ocean >> gyres to be full of 'gold' - there was once a project to harvest black >> nodules of molybdenum via barges dredging the sea floor. It failed because >> we found cheaper mines on land. Our gyre salvage has no value in economics >> unless we can force the dumpers to pay. >> >> Religion had several rebellions against 'temple money' and blood debts. >> The temples have long been banks, increasingly working their Undead >> practices from the shadows. The answer is 'positive money' created for >> projects we decide we want to do - though this is all-too-easy to say. In >> the US, this theory is called modern monetary theory (MMT) - the argument >> is more than a century old with little sign of transfer to practice (time >> banks, local economic transfer schemes, Bitcoin, block chain technology). >> >> Spiritual rebellion might require a rebellion against the old separation >> of god from Caesar's world of the coin. >> >> On Wednesday, 15 October 2014 23:07:38 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>> >>> Master of the obvious. I would say that each of the people mentioned >>> gave it a good shot and effected many lives. They each had tremendous >>> effects on the same generation. >>> >>> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 5:13:30 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>> >>>> To call for revolution is easy, to create revolution is another. >>>> Revolution is change .. >>>> >>>> >>>> Allan >>>> Living Soul >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Sent: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 9:40 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>> >>>> Martin Luther King Jr. called for a revolution of conscience. Grace Lee >>>> Boggs, in the end, calls for a revolution of spirit. John Lennon called >>>> for >>>> a revolution of the mind. I find myself in agreement with all of these. >>>> http://youtu.be/SMEgGGnZ43Y >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 1:33:53 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Seek the narrow path which few choose to follow. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Revolution is about change, the media loves the violent variety as do >>>>> the politicians & weapons manufactures. No one in power wants real >>>>> change. >>>>> >>>>> The Atlantic ocean is also available for a revolutionary micro-nation >>>>> formation. We are talking revolution are we not? Questions come to >>>>> creating >>>>> a homeland, a self sustaining community with the ability to expand, >>>>> feeding >>>>> the population, international trade. It seems to me the easiest cover >>>>> that >>>>> would essentially go unnoticed would be cleaning up the ocean gyres. >>>>> Extremely large ocean barges are available .. It would not be difficult >>>>> to >>>>> create vertical wind turbines with reef levels for handling higher winds >>>>> speeds, hydroponics for food supply and raising fish for commercial >>>>> trade. >>>>> If you look at the skycat airship you have a simple potential freighter.. >>>>> >>>>> Tinnen out of the box. >>>>> If you want revolution why not do it under the radar? >>>>> >>>>> Allan >>>>> Living Soul >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 1:06 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>> >>>>> Religion could not break the spell because, like reason, it is steeped >>>>> in duality. Nothing is smashed with a non dual viewpoint, all is >>>>> included, >>>>> but opposition falls away and with it, what we perceive to be fascists. >>>>> I >>>>> agree with your observation that much of this is fed like pablum, in >>>>> expensive new age emperors clothing. Even that raises the questions for >>>>> those who have never considered them. All just sign posts along the road. >>>>> When your step creates the path, you may actually be on the path. Don't >>>>> expect to see a crowd around you. >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 5:00:58 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> That would be worth believing in Allan. It's hard to work out what >>>>>> rebellion is. I might break into the Freeze art sales event in London >>>>>> and >>>>>> smash up one of Facil's exhibits in the first of my series of Vandal >>>>>> Art. >>>>>> This might, in fact, merely be a marketing prank to draw attention to >>>>>> the >>>>>> Facilitator and increase the price of his stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've been looking into a weeding robot of late. Brilliant tech that >>>>>> embodies the very hard, back-breaking work that requires more training >>>>>> than >>>>>> most might think for humans to do it. It's hard to retain labour for >>>>>> such >>>>>> tasks in western agriculture, so the work groups tend to need expensive >>>>>> training every year. The real rebellion may come when we realise most >>>>>> financial and management jobs are already embodied in technology - at >>>>>> which >>>>>> point we might see the end of the current work ethic. >>>>>> >>>>>> The danger with higher plane thinking-achievement might be described >>>>>> as fascist idolatry - something I also feel on god as authority. I'm >>>>>> not >>>>>> much convinced by 'introspection to the light' - feels like 'Chicken >>>>>> Soup >>>>>> for the Soul' too often. Yet doubt easily becomes another certainty. >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> for some kind of smash up, but this really is just vandalism unless we >>>>>> really try to bring something better into place. Descartes had to say >>>>>> that >>>>>> a beneficent god would take care of us while we did radical evaluation - >>>>>> the Inquisition was on his back (in letters to mates he would point to >>>>>> what >>>>>> happened to Galileo and that he would fare worse as a Frenchman). The >>>>>> current Inquisition is, of course, economics. >>>>>> >>>>>> Christianity (before its modern descent to Xtianity) once seriously >>>>>> considered whether Christ owned the clothes he wore (Wyclif), a very >>>>>> radical question - though even this was subject to political >>>>>> machination. >>>>>> Plastic factories sourcing waste material from the Pacific are some way >>>>>> off. What of our ideology of private ownership when a bunch of >>>>>> well-armed >>>>>> aliens turn up and tell us they built the planet? >>>>>> >>>>>> Religion and Reason both give us the problem of authority and >>>>>> potential delusion. Who now would go on the streets as wave a flag for >>>>>> Hitler, the shell-shocked lunatic? People did and we may be doing >>>>>> something similar now. Could religion break the spell? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 21:27:04 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do think there is a true revolution occurring as we right. >>>>>>> Creating a new direction. I think they will form small inter connected >>>>>>> ¿internet? Working together for common good. There probably will be >>>>>>> totally >>>>>>> self sustaining probably cleaning up the ocean waste working at >>>>>>> balancing >>>>>>> the eco systems. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 10:09 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Deconstruction and reconstruction have to go hand in hand - if we >>>>>>> have to call them such at all. One of the rebellions I want to see is >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> our literature. Though art can descend to the likes of London's >>>>>>> 'Freeze' >>>>>>> art sales (kitsch rules), it has that anything goes potential. >>>>>>> Literature >>>>>>> is very formulaic at the moment, mostly copies of copies of a forgotten >>>>>>> original - much like politics. I'm with Allan on the doing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 20:49:31 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You are right religion is the basic foundation including all the >>>>>>>> superstitions. The source of beliefs really does not matter. At this >>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>> for the greatest majority of the world's people that is what they >>>>>>>> want. >>>>>>>> Level 1 believe follow the rules. Level 2 people become connected and >>>>>>>> aware others presence of a power greater than you are. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How a person responds to the reality of the world in which they >>>>>>>> live determines they spiritual development. Often times people say one >>>>>>>> thing then do another. It is the actions that carry weight. What you >>>>>>>> believe longer matters. Atheism is a valid spiritual view point. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>> A Living Soul >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>> Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 5:52 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wouldn't go so far as to say we are killing the planet, or be so >>>>>>>> bold as to blame one thing like fossil fuel usage on climate change, >>>>>>>> but I >>>>>>>> do think Naomi has been swept along by a collective movement away from >>>>>>>> top >>>>>>>> down/bottom up change to something much more integrated. Human >>>>>>>> evolution >>>>>>>> becoming human being. These surges of collective movements all over >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> world, whether in China or Korea or Italy or New York, occurring for >>>>>>>> various "reasons" are like a pulse through our collective blood >>>>>>>> stream. >>>>>>>> Have they always been, and we are only now aware of all of them >>>>>>>> because of >>>>>>>> technology - or are there more than ever? Is the pulse accelerating? >>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>> my view, our ability to recognize global happenings through technology >>>>>>>> expands our consciousness. But consciousness is. It doesn't evolve >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> change. We only feel that it does because we apply mental constructs >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> what we recognize in order to analyze, understand and communicate. >>>>>>>> Here is >>>>>>>> the ought from is. Here, I think, the deconstruction begins. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 10:24:12 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I like the idea in much the same way Molly, perhaps especially >>>>>>>>> that of the dross falling away (perhaps from my short time in foundry >>>>>>>>> work!). Current physics leaves us with 96% 'dark' - something >>>>>>>>> (almost) >>>>>>>>> beyond our senses and geometry, but still works such miracles as >>>>>>>>> television, with relativity telling us such mundane stuff as how a >>>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>>>> acid battery produces far more energy than we'd expect from standard >>>>>>>>> chemistry. This working in action with incomplete and possibly wrong >>>>>>>>> theory in our best areas is much neglected. We know very little of >>>>>>>>> social >>>>>>>>> organisation (despite reams of literature) and the role of >>>>>>>>> 'constructors' >>>>>>>>> across science and society. What we do know is generally swamped by >>>>>>>>> ignorance and the need to earn a crust in existing social order. I >>>>>>>>> have to >>>>>>>>> say the literature is not a 'how to manual'. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Grace asks ' are we prepared to develop a whole new form of >>>>>>>>> solidarity economics emphasizing sustainability, mutuality, and local >>>>>>>>> self-reliance?' Scientists have written on this for more than a >>>>>>>>> century >>>>>>>>> and it comes to a moral head in climate change, pollution and the >>>>>>>>> cosmology >>>>>>>>> of our plight (needs to leave the planet over time, be prepared for >>>>>>>>> collisions). The facts have me convinced one can derive an ought >>>>>>>>> from an >>>>>>>>> is. Naomi Klein's 'This Changes Everything' has a lot of the facts. >>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>> rebellious turn for me would be religion free of what Tom Paine >>>>>>>>> complained >>>>>>>>> of (superstition), most notably inflicted on us now through >>>>>>>>> pseudo-science >>>>>>>>> like economics (highly religious in many senses including nine >>>>>>>>> versions, >>>>>>>>> all wrong) riddled with superstition and void of spiritual thought >>>>>>>>> experiment and experience (data in a sense of what it could be to be >>>>>>>>> human >>>>>>>>> or post-human). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 14:20:06 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You really cover the gamut here, Neil, going round and round the >>>>>>>>>> nut. Rebellion has been on my mind too lately, as one of the great >>>>>>>>>> Detroiters, Grace Lee Boggs, lays in hospice. She spent her adult >>>>>>>>>> life >>>>>>>>>> spanning 8 decades organizing social activism locally in Detroit and >>>>>>>>>> nationally for many movements, civil rights and women's rights among >>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>> I was excited to receive an award last month because she was on the >>>>>>>>>> agenda >>>>>>>>>> to receive a lifetime achievement award also but she sent a >>>>>>>>>> representative >>>>>>>>>> and her announcement came shortly afterward. Her story is quite >>>>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>>> the deeper one digs into it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Toward the end of her life she leaned less toward civil >>>>>>>>>> disobedience and more toward spiritual coherence of groups, actively >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> quietly leading local groups to greater organization and standards >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> living. For me, her movement to peaceful rebellion was key as I have >>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>> moved thusly when called to do so. Working "with" not against in a >>>>>>>>>> rebellion means organizing through the deconstruction, seeing past >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> chaos and predatory participants that inevitably enter into the >>>>>>>>>> fray. >>>>>>>>>> Moving in spirit during rebellion gets past the right and wrong and >>>>>>>>>> into an >>>>>>>>>> vision of peak organization for the group. The movement is movement >>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>> the vision for everyone. A great deal of rubbish falls away in the >>>>>>>>>> process. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From my view, religion supports individuals and groups by lending >>>>>>>>>> a structure to the seeking, until seeking is no longer necessary. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 7:30:31 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The 'Putinography' was subject to ridicule on our satirical show >>>>>>>>>>> 'Have I Got News For You'. I have never been able to feel, say, >>>>>>>>>>> Allan or >>>>>>>>>>> Molly's religion or god, though I'm not really atheist, even if >>>>>>>>>>> that's the >>>>>>>>>>> answer I'd give on a survey. I don't get art with, say, Facil's >>>>>>>>>>> eye >>>>>>>>>>> either, and in science and maths know I don't visualise well but do >>>>>>>>>>> sense >>>>>>>>>>> patterns and have an almost religious demand for evidence - to the >>>>>>>>>>> extent >>>>>>>>>>> I'd say there is almost none in our courtrooms or what passes for >>>>>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>>>> scrutiny. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Rebellion interests me firstly in the sense of its existence >>>>>>>>>>> before the human mind. Even ants 'rebel' against their captors, >>>>>>>>>>> killing >>>>>>>>>>> their young, sometimes fighting against superior weapons technology >>>>>>>>>>> (most >>>>>>>>>>> slavers have mandibles like swords). The rebellion is not about >>>>>>>>>>> freedom >>>>>>>>>>> for the individual ants but their species. The rebels will die, >>>>>>>>>>> but their >>>>>>>>>>> species may prosper from the reduced slaving population. We tend >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> metaphors like 'co-evolution' and 'arms' races' in biology, but >>>>>>>>>>> these are >>>>>>>>>>> inadequate, transferring the all-too-human. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Religion, stripped of its institutionalism and rationalisation, >>>>>>>>>>> seems a rebellion to peace and in and against nature at the same >>>>>>>>>>> time. It >>>>>>>>>>> is against self whilst also self-development. The language is >>>>>>>>>>> almost >>>>>>>>>>> impossible as we have barely learned the ambiguity and parochiality >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> language and are confused on originality. Mimicry is everywhere in >>>>>>>>>>> nature >>>>>>>>>>> - ants pretending to be spiders, spiders and beetles pretending to >>>>>>>>>>> be ants >>>>>>>>>>> - politicians pretending to be other than puppets of shadow control. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 19:51:39 UTC+1, facilitator wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I believe some of this. However I deviate in that I believe >>>>>>>>>>>> churches are for the individual to hide among or be counted in the >>>>>>>>>>>> group. >>>>>>>>>>>> This is even more true of the priest, Rabbi, Imam, etc. Saying >>>>>>>>>>>> they are >>>>>>>>>>>> for the masses requires a much wider brush that I can't paint >>>>>>>>>>>> liberally >>>>>>>>>>>> with. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 12:27:43 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Churches are for basically for the masses .. There is a basic >>>>>>>>>>>>> need to believe or explain the unknown. Transition into >>>>>>>>>>>>> spirituality does >>>>>>>>>>>>> not take much. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Common religious views are a starting point from which to >>>>>>>>>>>>> build ones spiritual view and experience. Within Catholicism >>>>>>>>>>>>> there are >>>>>>>>>>>>> basically 3 levels of spirituality. The first level , believe God >>>>>>>>>>>>> is real >>>>>>>>>>>>> go to church follow the rules. The second level is where people >>>>>>>>>>>>> become >>>>>>>>>>>>> aware of the presence of God, with him becoming a major part of >>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>> lives, with experiences like Molly spoke of not being uncommon. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Theses >>>>>>>>>>>>> experiences being a driving force. The Third level the roll of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the church >>>>>>>>>>>>> changes from spiritual guide to one of an observer and scribe. At >>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>> level these people are no longer the ' churches ' problem but >>>>>>>>>>>>> that of God. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The official church very much likes these people as part of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> church, >>>>>>>>>>>>> providing assistance when possible. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Many centuries of observation allows the church to easily >>>>>>>>>>>>> recognize the different levels. It really is an interesting >>>>>>>>>>>>> source of >>>>>>>>>>>>> study. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The English are among the greatest slavers in the world.. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Followed closely by islam. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I've done much of the magic in the secret society bit (in what >>>>>>>>>>>>> was once Zaire). My friend (a tribal chief) and I were able to >>>>>>>>>>>>> repeat the >>>>>>>>>>>>> magic in my university office. Sadly, I get rather the reverse >>>>>>>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>>>>>>> of Molly in our churches. Jean-Claude was a thorough-going >>>>>>>>>>>>> Marxist, though >>>>>>>>>>>>> detested the Lenin-Mao lines. I tend to anarchist-mutualism >>>>>>>>>>>>> myself and am >>>>>>>>>>>>> never sure about Molly's higher plane - my sense is it emerges >>>>>>>>>>>>> from the >>>>>>>>>>>>> material conditions of possibility. Sleeping near ants is not >>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking of the potentials of religion to free us from >>>>>>>>>>>>> biological structuration, perhaps in the sense of a poison-cure. >>>>>>>>>>>>> It has >>>>>>>>>>>>> both higher plane experience and chronic rationalisation - the >>>>>>>>>>>>> latter, say, >>>>>>>>>>>>> in jihad, crusades and the ant-like 'let's kill the Yazidi and >>>>>>>>>>>>> steal their >>>>>>>>>>>>> women' (or Numbers 31). Many of our terms have this pharmikon >>>>>>>>>>>>> status, >>>>>>>>>>>>> though we allow them to dominate in 'good' form - education, >>>>>>>>>>>>> government, >>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom ... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> John Brown is often presented as a deluded religionist, but at >>>>>>>>>>>>> least wasn't talking western philosophy at the top table of a >>>>>>>>>>>>> slave >>>>>>>>>>>>> economy. Religion these days seems silent on material matters. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 14:16:26 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose that it does provide a place to hide in community >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the mundane and economic realities of the lower and middle >>>>>>>>>>>>>> classes if >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one is necessary. I've always found a church community to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide its own >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural limitations based on what all human groups offer, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not much >>>>>>>>>>>>>> insight into faith or support in crisis of faith. At the head >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of each >>>>>>>>>>>>>> church is a human being, struggling as we all do to make sense >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of it all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The tone of this culture depends invariable on the tone of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> leader and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they deviate more or less from the greater church dictates. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mass itself is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> little more than a ritual although once understood as a process >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to higher >>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness, can take you there, I've experienced it, and not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholic mass. Participating tribal ritual drumming can lead to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ecstasies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Much if not all of this is lost on most congregations, in my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 7:03:02 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many of our terms for freedom have religious origin in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rough phrase 'freedom from debt' - more and much wider than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than Xtian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kicking over the tables of the money-lenders. There have been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many debt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jubilees in history, often on the death of a 'king'. Debt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slavery is and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has been much wider in human communities than most seem to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know. We are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not widely informed on biology and anthropology in this regard. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Religion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can raise the best and worst in us. Much of it raises the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notion of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adherents as some kind of chosen people, sometimes restricted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in-group blood line. The Yazidi are such an example. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chimps seem to have a form of 'religion' connected with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seasons - as many of our belief systems. I saw footage of some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> southeast >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Asian spiders this morning - they lay eggs in a central tower >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounded by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a henge - immediately bringing Stonehenge to my mind, though >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hack stones to shape. Religion raises Facil's 'we might both >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (all) be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong' phrase to my mind, something often missing in our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> argument despite >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge that we can make many equally powerful arguments >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuff (Sextus Empiricus). To judge between arguments we need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mystical (religious). I say this as a scientist knowing magic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wands don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work. Religion could be rebellion, a postmodern moment, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oversimplifying to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the extreme, of incredulity towards metanarratives like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government, law and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> economics - a dreamtime against material and spiritual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debt-rules. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Black holes have recently become 'grey', but dreamtime might >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> challenge the geometry we use. Global warming and much else on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pollution >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> challenges us to think 'This Changes Everything' (Naomi Klein) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> economics of 'we can never afford to do the right things' in my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view. So >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what does religion offer on the postmodern moment of rebellion? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
