Indeed, Neil, this is the rebellion that brings along with it the promise of heaven on earth. "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." The Rosicrucians created a religions sect based on crossing that threshold of separation.
On Thursday, October 16, 2014 5:25:59 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: > > Mastering the obvious might be one of the skills. Under the radar feels > as right as pablum and naked clothing. The Stoics had good arguments > against slavery - the speed of the spiritual can seem slow. I've been > thinking quite a lot about the 'social model of disability' of late - odd > in a way as I don't think it works for disability. The idea in its strong > sense is that society rather than impairment creates disability. Much to > be said for this in a weaker form - one only has to think of stairs and > someone in a wheelchair. In a broader sense, we see a lot of disabling > techniques in biological networks - parasites can even cause sterility in > mushrooms - and even in insect workers there is a caste system based on > aggression (nine levels in some ants) - we see similar in mammals and > humans. > > Molly's words are quite brilliant and we should not neglect the efforts of > those who have tried - indeed we could do with much better understandings > of how such as women's equality have come about. The sword and musket bit > of me might still want a place on Allan's boat. > > Thermodynamics (in modern form) is really about 'what works and what > won't'. The modern form, in some ways, is a reaction against 'creation > events' to get better understanding of how events are constructed without > the constraints of big bang. There are attempts to apply this to the way > we live, to understand the 'flows'. The economics we have is mostly a > block to doing the right things - within it, Allan's plan needs the ocean > gyres to be full of 'gold' - there was once a project to harvest black > nodules of molybdenum via barges dredging the sea floor. It failed because > we found cheaper mines on land. Our gyre salvage has no value in economics > unless we can force the dumpers to pay. > > Religion had several rebellions against 'temple money' and blood debts. > The temples have long been banks, increasingly working their Undead > practices from the shadows. The answer is 'positive money' created for > projects we decide we want to do - though this is all-too-easy to say. In > the US, this theory is called modern monetary theory (MMT) - the argument > is more than a century old with little sign of transfer to practice (time > banks, local economic transfer schemes, Bitcoin, block chain technology). > > Spiritual rebellion might require a rebellion against the old separation > of god from Caesar's world of the coin. > > On Wednesday, 15 October 2014 23:07:38 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >> >> Master of the obvious. I would say that each of the people mentioned >> gave it a good shot and effected many lives. They each had tremendous >> effects on the same generation. >> >> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 5:13:30 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>> >>> To call for revolution is easy, to create revolution is another. >>> Revolution is change .. >>> >>> >>> Allan >>> Living Soul >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 9:40 PM >>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>> >>> Martin Luther King Jr. called for a revolution of conscience. Grace Lee >>> Boggs, in the end, calls for a revolution of spirit. John Lennon called for >>> a revolution of the mind. I find myself in agreement with all of these. >>> http://youtu.be/SMEgGGnZ43Y >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 1:33:53 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>> >>>> Seek the narrow path which few choose to follow. >>>> >>>> >>>> Revolution is about change, the media loves the violent variety as do >>>> the politicians & weapons manufactures. No one in power wants real change. >>>> >>>> The Atlantic ocean is also available for a revolutionary micro-nation >>>> formation. We are talking revolution are we not? Questions come to >>>> creating >>>> a homeland, a self sustaining community with the ability to expand, >>>> feeding >>>> the population, international trade. It seems to me the easiest cover that >>>> would essentially go unnoticed would be cleaning up the ocean gyres. >>>> Extremely large ocean barges are available .. It would not be difficult to >>>> create vertical wind turbines with reef levels for handling higher winds >>>> speeds, hydroponics for food supply and raising fish for commercial trade. >>>> >>>> If you look at the skycat airship you have a simple potential freighter.. >>>> Tinnen out of the box. >>>> If you want revolution why not do it under the radar? >>>> >>>> Allan >>>> Living Soul >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Sent: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 1:06 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>> >>>> Religion could not break the spell because, like reason, it is steeped >>>> in duality. Nothing is smashed with a non dual viewpoint, all is included, >>>> but opposition falls away and with it, what we perceive to be fascists. I >>>> agree with your observation that much of this is fed like pablum, in >>>> expensive new age emperors clothing. Even that raises the questions for >>>> those who have never considered them. All just sign posts along the road. >>>> When your step creates the path, you may actually be on the path. Don't >>>> expect to see a crowd around you. >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 5:00:58 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>> >>>>> That would be worth believing in Allan. It's hard to work out what >>>>> rebellion is. I might break into the Freeze art sales event in London >>>>> and >>>>> smash up one of Facil's exhibits in the first of my series of Vandal Art. >>>>> This might, in fact, merely be a marketing prank to draw attention to >>>>> the >>>>> Facilitator and increase the price of his stuff. >>>>> >>>>> I've been looking into a weeding robot of late. Brilliant tech that >>>>> embodies the very hard, back-breaking work that requires more training >>>>> than >>>>> most might think for humans to do it. It's hard to retain labour for >>>>> such >>>>> tasks in western agriculture, so the work groups tend to need expensive >>>>> training every year. The real rebellion may come when we realise most >>>>> financial and management jobs are already embodied in technology - at >>>>> which >>>>> point we might see the end of the current work ethic. >>>>> >>>>> The danger with higher plane thinking-achievement might be described >>>>> as fascist idolatry - something I also feel on god as authority. I'm not >>>>> much convinced by 'introspection to the light' - feels like 'Chicken Soup >>>>> for the Soul' too often. Yet doubt easily becomes another certainty. >>>>> I'm >>>>> for some kind of smash up, but this really is just vandalism unless we >>>>> really try to bring something better into place. Descartes had to say >>>>> that >>>>> a beneficent god would take care of us while we did radical evaluation - >>>>> the Inquisition was on his back (in letters to mates he would point to >>>>> what >>>>> happened to Galileo and that he would fare worse as a Frenchman). The >>>>> current Inquisition is, of course, economics. >>>>> >>>>> Christianity (before its modern descent to Xtianity) once seriously >>>>> considered whether Christ owned the clothes he wore (Wyclif), a very >>>>> radical question - though even this was subject to political machination. >>>>> Plastic factories sourcing waste material from the Pacific are some way >>>>> off. What of our ideology of private ownership when a bunch of >>>>> well-armed >>>>> aliens turn up and tell us they built the planet? >>>>> >>>>> Religion and Reason both give us the problem of authority and >>>>> potential delusion. Who now would go on the streets as wave a flag for >>>>> Hitler, the shell-shocked lunatic? People did and we may be doing >>>>> something similar now. Could religion break the spell? >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 21:27:04 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I do think there is a true revolution occurring as we right. Creating >>>>>> a new direction. I think they will form small inter connected ¿internet? >>>>>> Working together for common good. There probably will be totally self >>>>>> sustaining probably cleaning up the ocean waste working at balancing the >>>>>> eco systems. >>>>>> >>>>>> Allan >>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 10:09 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>> >>>>>> Deconstruction and reconstruction have to go hand in hand - if we >>>>>> have to call them such at all. One of the rebellions I want to see is >>>>>> in >>>>>> our literature. Though art can descend to the likes of London's >>>>>> 'Freeze' >>>>>> art sales (kitsch rules), it has that anything goes potential. >>>>>> Literature >>>>>> is very formulaic at the moment, mostly copies of copies of a forgotten >>>>>> original - much like politics. I'm with Allan on the doing. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 20:49:31 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You are right religion is the basic foundation including all the >>>>>>> superstitions. The source of beliefs really does not matter. At this >>>>>>> point >>>>>>> for the greatest majority of the world's people that is what they want. >>>>>>> Level 1 believe follow the rules. Level 2 people become connected and >>>>>>> aware others presence of a power greater than you are. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How a person responds to the reality of the world in which they live >>>>>>> determines they spiritual development. Often times people say one thing >>>>>>> then do another. It is the actions that carry weight. What you believe >>>>>>> longer matters. Atheism is a valid spiritual view point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>> A Living Soul >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 5:52 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wouldn't go so far as to say we are killing the planet, or be so >>>>>>> bold as to blame one thing like fossil fuel usage on climate change, >>>>>>> but I >>>>>>> do think Naomi has been swept along by a collective movement away from >>>>>>> top >>>>>>> down/bottom up change to something much more integrated. Human >>>>>>> evolution >>>>>>> becoming human being. These surges of collective movements all over >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> world, whether in China or Korea or Italy or New York, occurring for >>>>>>> various "reasons" are like a pulse through our collective blood stream. >>>>>>> Have they always been, and we are only now aware of all of them >>>>>>> because of >>>>>>> technology - or are there more than ever? Is the pulse accelerating? >>>>>>> In >>>>>>> my view, our ability to recognize global happenings through technology >>>>>>> expands our consciousness. But consciousness is. It doesn't evolve or >>>>>>> change. We only feel that it does because we apply mental constructs >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> what we recognize in order to analyze, understand and communicate. Here >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> the ought from is. Here, I think, the deconstruction begins. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 10:24:12 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I like the idea in much the same way Molly, perhaps especially that >>>>>>>> of the dross falling away (perhaps from my short time in foundry >>>>>>>> work!). >>>>>>>> Current physics leaves us with 96% 'dark' - something (almost) beyond >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>> senses and geometry, but still works such miracles as television, with >>>>>>>> relativity telling us such mundane stuff as how a lead acid battery >>>>>>>> produces far more energy than we'd expect from standard chemistry. >>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>> working in action with incomplete and possibly wrong theory in our >>>>>>>> best >>>>>>>> areas is much neglected. We know very little of social organisation >>>>>>>> (despite reams of literature) and the role of 'constructors' across >>>>>>>> science >>>>>>>> and society. What we do know is generally swamped by ignorance and >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> need to earn a crust in existing social order. I have to say the >>>>>>>> literature is not a 'how to manual'. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Grace asks ' are we prepared to develop a whole new form of >>>>>>>> solidarity economics emphasizing sustainability, mutuality, and local >>>>>>>> self-reliance?' Scientists have written on this for more than a >>>>>>>> century >>>>>>>> and it comes to a moral head in climate change, pollution and the >>>>>>>> cosmology >>>>>>>> of our plight (needs to leave the planet over time, be prepared for >>>>>>>> collisions). The facts have me convinced one can derive an ought from >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> is. Naomi Klein's 'This Changes Everything' has a lot of the facts. >>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>> rebellious turn for me would be religion free of what Tom Paine >>>>>>>> complained >>>>>>>> of (superstition), most notably inflicted on us now through >>>>>>>> pseudo-science >>>>>>>> like economics (highly religious in many senses including nine >>>>>>>> versions, >>>>>>>> all wrong) riddled with superstition and void of spiritual thought >>>>>>>> experiment and experience (data in a sense of what it could be to be >>>>>>>> human >>>>>>>> or post-human). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 14:20:06 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You really cover the gamut here, Neil, going round and round the >>>>>>>>> nut. Rebellion has been on my mind too lately, as one of the great >>>>>>>>> Detroiters, Grace Lee Boggs, lays in hospice. She spent her adult >>>>>>>>> life >>>>>>>>> spanning 8 decades organizing social activism locally in Detroit and >>>>>>>>> nationally for many movements, civil rights and women's rights among >>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>> I was excited to receive an award last month because she was on the >>>>>>>>> agenda >>>>>>>>> to receive a lifetime achievement award also but she sent a >>>>>>>>> representative >>>>>>>>> and her announcement came shortly afterward. Her story is quite >>>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>> the deeper one digs into it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Toward the end of her life she leaned less toward civil >>>>>>>>> disobedience and more toward spiritual coherence of groups, actively >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> quietly leading local groups to greater organization and standards of >>>>>>>>> living. For me, her movement to peaceful rebellion was key as I have >>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>> moved thusly when called to do so. Working "with" not against in a >>>>>>>>> rebellion means organizing through the deconstruction, seeing past >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> chaos and predatory participants that inevitably enter into the fray. >>>>>>>>> Moving in spirit during rebellion gets past the right and wrong and >>>>>>>>> into an >>>>>>>>> vision of peak organization for the group. The movement is movement >>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>> the vision for everyone. A great deal of rubbish falls away in the >>>>>>>>> process. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From my view, religion supports individuals and groups by lending >>>>>>>>> a structure to the seeking, until seeking is no longer necessary. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 7:30:31 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The 'Putinography' was subject to ridicule on our satirical show >>>>>>>>>> 'Have I Got News For You'. I have never been able to feel, say, >>>>>>>>>> Allan or >>>>>>>>>> Molly's religion or god, though I'm not really atheist, even if >>>>>>>>>> that's the >>>>>>>>>> answer I'd give on a survey. I don't get art with, say, Facil's eye >>>>>>>>>> either, and in science and maths know I don't visualise well but do >>>>>>>>>> sense >>>>>>>>>> patterns and have an almost religious demand for evidence - to the >>>>>>>>>> extent >>>>>>>>>> I'd say there is almost none in our courtrooms or what passes for >>>>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>>> scrutiny. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Rebellion interests me firstly in the sense of its existence >>>>>>>>>> before the human mind. Even ants 'rebel' against their captors, >>>>>>>>>> killing >>>>>>>>>> their young, sometimes fighting against superior weapons technology >>>>>>>>>> (most >>>>>>>>>> slavers have mandibles like swords). The rebellion is not about >>>>>>>>>> freedom >>>>>>>>>> for the individual ants but their species. The rebels will die, but >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>> species may prosper from the reduced slaving population. We tend to >>>>>>>>>> metaphors like 'co-evolution' and 'arms' races' in biology, but >>>>>>>>>> these are >>>>>>>>>> inadequate, transferring the all-too-human. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Religion, stripped of its institutionalism and rationalisation, >>>>>>>>>> seems a rebellion to peace and in and against nature at the same >>>>>>>>>> time. It >>>>>>>>>> is against self whilst also self-development. The language is >>>>>>>>>> almost >>>>>>>>>> impossible as we have barely learned the ambiguity and parochiality >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> language and are confused on originality. Mimicry is everywhere in >>>>>>>>>> nature >>>>>>>>>> - ants pretending to be spiders, spiders and beetles pretending to >>>>>>>>>> be ants >>>>>>>>>> - politicians pretending to be other than puppets of shadow control. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 19:51:39 UTC+1, facilitator wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I believe some of this. However I deviate in that I believe >>>>>>>>>>> churches are for the individual to hide among or be counted in the >>>>>>>>>>> group. >>>>>>>>>>> This is even more true of the priest, Rabbi, Imam, etc. Saying >>>>>>>>>>> they are >>>>>>>>>>> for the masses requires a much wider brush that I can't paint >>>>>>>>>>> liberally >>>>>>>>>>> with. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 12:27:43 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Churches are for basically for the masses .. There is a basic >>>>>>>>>>>> need to believe or explain the unknown. Transition into >>>>>>>>>>>> spirituality does >>>>>>>>>>>> not take much. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Common religious views are a starting point from which to build >>>>>>>>>>>> ones spiritual view and experience. Within Catholicism there are >>>>>>>>>>>> basically >>>>>>>>>>>> 3 levels of spirituality. The first level , believe God is real go >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> church follow the rules. The second level is where people become >>>>>>>>>>>> aware of >>>>>>>>>>>> the presence of God, with him becoming a major part of their >>>>>>>>>>>> lives, with >>>>>>>>>>>> experiences like Molly spoke of not being uncommon. Theses >>>>>>>>>>>> experiences >>>>>>>>>>>> being a driving force. The Third level the roll of the church >>>>>>>>>>>> changes from >>>>>>>>>>>> spiritual guide to one of an observer and scribe. At this level >>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> people are no longer the ' churches ' problem but that of God. The >>>>>>>>>>>> official >>>>>>>>>>>> church very much likes these people as part of the church, >>>>>>>>>>>> providing >>>>>>>>>>>> assistance when possible. >>>>>>>>>>>> Many centuries of observation allows the church to easily >>>>>>>>>>>> recognize the different levels. It really is an interesting >>>>>>>>>>>> source of >>>>>>>>>>>> study. >>>>>>>>>>>> The English are among the greatest slavers in the world.. >>>>>>>>>>>> Followed closely by islam. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I've done much of the magic in the secret society bit (in what >>>>>>>>>>>> was once Zaire). My friend (a tribal chief) and I were able to >>>>>>>>>>>> repeat the >>>>>>>>>>>> magic in my university office. Sadly, I get rather the reverse >>>>>>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>>>>>> of Molly in our churches. Jean-Claude was a thorough-going >>>>>>>>>>>> Marxist, though >>>>>>>>>>>> detested the Lenin-Mao lines. I tend to anarchist-mutualism >>>>>>>>>>>> myself and am >>>>>>>>>>>> never sure about Molly's higher plane - my sense is it emerges >>>>>>>>>>>> from the >>>>>>>>>>>> material conditions of possibility. Sleeping near ants is not >>>>>>>>>>>> recommended. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking of the potentials of religion to free us from >>>>>>>>>>>> biological structuration, perhaps in the sense of a poison-cure. >>>>>>>>>>>> It has >>>>>>>>>>>> both higher plane experience and chronic rationalisation - the >>>>>>>>>>>> latter, say, >>>>>>>>>>>> in jihad, crusades and the ant-like 'let's kill the Yazidi and >>>>>>>>>>>> steal their >>>>>>>>>>>> women' (or Numbers 31). Many of our terms have this pharmikon >>>>>>>>>>>> status, >>>>>>>>>>>> though we allow them to dominate in 'good' form - education, >>>>>>>>>>>> government, >>>>>>>>>>>> freedom ... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> John Brown is often presented as a deluded religionist, but at >>>>>>>>>>>> least wasn't talking western philosophy at the top table of a >>>>>>>>>>>> slave >>>>>>>>>>>> economy. Religion these days seems silent on material matters. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 14:16:26 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose that it does provide a place to hide in community >>>>>>>>>>>>> from the mundane and economic realities of the lower and middle >>>>>>>>>>>>> classes if >>>>>>>>>>>>> one is necessary. I've always found a church community to >>>>>>>>>>>>> provide its own >>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural limitations based on what all human groups offer, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> not much >>>>>>>>>>>>> insight into faith or support in crisis of faith. At the head of >>>>>>>>>>>>> each >>>>>>>>>>>>> church is a human being, struggling as we all do to make sense of >>>>>>>>>>>>> it all. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The tone of this culture depends invariable on the tone of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> leader and >>>>>>>>>>>>> they deviate more or less from the greater church dictates. Mass >>>>>>>>>>>>> itself is >>>>>>>>>>>>> little more than a ritual although once understood as a process >>>>>>>>>>>>> to higher >>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness, can take you there, I've experienced it, and not >>>>>>>>>>>>> just in a >>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholic mass. Participating tribal ritual drumming can lead to >>>>>>>>>>>>> ecstasies. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Much if not all of this is lost on most congregations, in my >>>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 7:03:02 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many of our terms for freedom have religious origin in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rough phrase 'freedom from debt' - more and much wider than than >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xtian >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kicking over the tables of the money-lenders. There have been >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many debt >>>>>>>>>>>>>> jubilees in history, often on the death of a 'king'. Debt >>>>>>>>>>>>>> slavery is and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> has been much wider in human communities than most seem to know. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not widely informed on biology and anthropology in this regard. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Religion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can raise the best and worst in us. Much of it raises the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> notion of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> adherents as some kind of chosen people, sometimes restricted to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in-group blood line. The Yazidi are such an example. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chimps seem to have a form of 'religion' connected with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> seasons - as many of our belief systems. I saw footage of some >>>>>>>>>>>>>> southeast >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Asian spiders this morning - they lay eggs in a central tower >>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounded by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a henge - immediately bringing Stonehenge to my mind, though >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hack stones to shape. Religion raises Facil's 'we might both >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (all) be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong' phrase to my mind, something often missing in our >>>>>>>>>>>>>> argument despite >>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge that we can make many equally powerful arguments about >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuff (Sextus Empiricus). To judge between arguments we need >>>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mystical (religious). I say this as a scientist knowing magic >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wands don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> work. Religion could be rebellion, a postmodern moment, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> oversimplifying to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the extreme, of incredulity towards metanarratives like >>>>>>>>>>>>>> government, law and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> economics - a dreamtime against material and spiritual >>>>>>>>>>>>>> debt-rules. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Black holes have recently become 'grey', but dreamtime might >>>>>>>>>>>>>> challenge the geometry we use. Global warming and much else on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pollution >>>>>>>>>>>>>> challenges us to think 'This Changes Everything' (Naomi Klein) - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> economics of 'we can never afford to do the right things' in my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> view. So >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what does religion offer on the postmodern moment of rebellion? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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