Master of the obvious. I would say that each of the people mentioned gave it a good shot and effected many lives. They each had tremendous effects on the same generation.
On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 5:13:30 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: > > To call for revolution is easy, to create revolution is another. > Revolution is change .. > > > Allan > Living Soul > > -----Original Message----- > From: Molly <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 9:40 PM > Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion > > Martin Luther King Jr. called for a revolution of conscience. Grace Lee > Boggs, in the end, calls for a revolution of spirit. John Lennon called for > a revolution of the mind. I find myself in agreement with all of these. > http://youtu.be/SMEgGGnZ43Y > > > On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 1:33:53 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >> >> Seek the narrow path which few choose to follow. >> >> >> Revolution is about change, the media loves the violent variety as do the >> politicians & weapons manufactures. No one in power wants real change. >> >> The Atlantic ocean is also available for a revolutionary micro-nation >> formation. We are talking revolution are we not? Questions come to creating >> a homeland, a self sustaining community with the ability to expand, feeding >> the population, international trade. It seems to me the easiest cover that >> would essentially go unnoticed would be cleaning up the ocean gyres. >> Extremely large ocean barges are available .. It would not be difficult to >> create vertical wind turbines with reef levels for handling higher winds >> speeds, hydroponics for food supply and raising fish for commercial trade. >> If you look at the skycat airship you have a simple potential freighter.. >> Tinnen out of the box. >> If you want revolution why not do it under the radar? >> >> Allan >> Living Soul >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Molly <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 1:06 PM >> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >> >> Religion could not break the spell because, like reason, it is steeped in >> duality. Nothing is smashed with a non dual viewpoint, all is included, but >> opposition falls away and with it, what we perceive to be fascists. I >> agree with your observation that much of this is fed like pablum, in >> expensive new age emperors clothing. Even that raises the questions for >> those who have never considered them. All just sign posts along the road. >> When your step creates the path, you may actually be on the path. Don't >> expect to see a crowd around you. >> >> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 5:00:58 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>> >>> That would be worth believing in Allan. It's hard to work out what >>> rebellion is. I might break into the Freeze art sales event in London and >>> smash up one of Facil's exhibits in the first of my series of Vandal Art. >>> This might, in fact, merely be a marketing prank to draw attention to the >>> Facilitator and increase the price of his stuff. >>> >>> I've been looking into a weeding robot of late. Brilliant tech that >>> embodies the very hard, back-breaking work that requires more training than >>> most might think for humans to do it. It's hard to retain labour for such >>> tasks in western agriculture, so the work groups tend to need expensive >>> training every year. The real rebellion may come when we realise most >>> financial and management jobs are already embodied in technology - at which >>> point we might see the end of the current work ethic. >>> >>> The danger with higher plane thinking-achievement might be described as >>> fascist idolatry - something I also feel on god as authority. I'm not much >>> convinced by 'introspection to the light' - feels like 'Chicken Soup for >>> the Soul' too often. Yet doubt easily becomes another certainty. I'm for >>> some kind of smash up, but this really is just vandalism unless we really >>> try to bring something better into place. Descartes had to say that a >>> beneficent god would take care of us while we did radical evaluation - the >>> Inquisition was on his back (in letters to mates he would point to what >>> happened to Galileo and that he would fare worse as a Frenchman). The >>> current Inquisition is, of course, economics. >>> >>> Christianity (before its modern descent to Xtianity) once seriously >>> considered whether Christ owned the clothes he wore (Wyclif), a very >>> radical question - though even this was subject to political machination. >>> Plastic factories sourcing waste material from the Pacific are some way >>> off. What of our ideology of private ownership when a bunch of well-armed >>> aliens turn up and tell us they built the planet? >>> >>> Religion and Reason both give us the problem of authority and potential >>> delusion. Who now would go on the streets as wave a flag for Hitler, the >>> shell-shocked lunatic? People did and we may be doing something similar >>> now. Could religion break the spell? >>> >>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 21:27:04 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>> >>>> I do think there is a true revolution occurring as we right. Creating a >>>> new direction. I think they will form small inter connected ¿internet? >>>> Working together for common good. There probably will be totally self >>>> sustaining probably cleaning up the ocean waste working at balancing the >>>> eco systems. >>>> >>>> Allan >>>> Living Soul >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 10:09 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>> >>>> Deconstruction and reconstruction have to go hand in hand - if we have >>>> to call them such at all. One of the rebellions I want to see is in our >>>> literature. Though art can descend to the likes of London's 'Freeze' art >>>> sales (kitsch rules), it has that anything goes potential. Literature is >>>> very formulaic at the moment, mostly copies of copies of a forgotten >>>> original - much like politics. I'm with Allan on the doing. >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 20:49:31 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>> >>>>> You are right religion is the basic foundation including all the >>>>> superstitions. The source of beliefs really does not matter. At this >>>>> point >>>>> for the greatest majority of the world's people that is what they want. >>>>> Level 1 believe follow the rules. Level 2 people become connected and >>>>> aware others presence of a power greater than you are. >>>>> >>>>> How a person responds to the reality of the world in which they live >>>>> determines they spiritual development. Often times people say one thing >>>>> then do another. It is the actions that carry weight. What you believe >>>>> longer matters. Atheism is a valid spiritual view point. >>>>> >>>>> Allan >>>>> A Living Soul >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 5:52 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>> >>>>> I wouldn't go so far as to say we are killing the planet, or be so >>>>> bold as to blame one thing like fossil fuel usage on climate change, but >>>>> I >>>>> do think Naomi has been swept along by a collective movement away from >>>>> top >>>>> down/bottom up change to something much more integrated. Human evolution >>>>> becoming human being. These surges of collective movements all over the >>>>> world, whether in China or Korea or Italy or New York, occurring for >>>>> various "reasons" are like a pulse through our collective blood stream. >>>>> Have they always been, and we are only now aware of all of them because >>>>> of >>>>> technology - or are there more than ever? Is the pulse accelerating? In >>>>> my view, our ability to recognize global happenings through technology >>>>> expands our consciousness. But consciousness is. It doesn't evolve or >>>>> change. We only feel that it does because we apply mental constructs to >>>>> what we recognize in order to analyze, understand and communicate. Here >>>>> is >>>>> the ought from is. Here, I think, the deconstruction begins. >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 10:24:12 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I like the idea in much the same way Molly, perhaps especially that >>>>>> of the dross falling away (perhaps from my short time in foundry work!). >>>>>> Current physics leaves us with 96% 'dark' - something (almost) beyond >>>>>> our >>>>>> senses and geometry, but still works such miracles as television, with >>>>>> relativity telling us such mundane stuff as how a lead acid battery >>>>>> produces far more energy than we'd expect from standard chemistry. This >>>>>> working in action with incomplete and possibly wrong theory in our best >>>>>> areas is much neglected. We know very little of social organisation >>>>>> (despite reams of literature) and the role of 'constructors' across >>>>>> science >>>>>> and society. What we do know is generally swamped by ignorance and the >>>>>> need to earn a crust in existing social order. I have to say the >>>>>> literature is not a 'how to manual'. >>>>>> >>>>>> Grace asks ' are we prepared to develop a whole new form of >>>>>> solidarity economics emphasizing sustainability, mutuality, and local >>>>>> self-reliance?' Scientists have written on this for more than a century >>>>>> and it comes to a moral head in climate change, pollution and the >>>>>> cosmology >>>>>> of our plight (needs to leave the planet over time, be prepared for >>>>>> collisions). The facts have me convinced one can derive an ought from >>>>>> an >>>>>> is. Naomi Klein's 'This Changes Everything' has a lot of the facts. >>>>>> The >>>>>> rebellious turn for me would be religion free of what Tom Paine >>>>>> complained >>>>>> of (superstition), most notably inflicted on us now through >>>>>> pseudo-science >>>>>> like economics (highly religious in many senses including nine versions, >>>>>> all wrong) riddled with superstition and void of spiritual thought >>>>>> experiment and experience (data in a sense of what it could be to be >>>>>> human >>>>>> or post-human). >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 14:20:06 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You really cover the gamut here, Neil, going round and round the >>>>>>> nut. Rebellion has been on my mind too lately, as one of the great >>>>>>> Detroiters, Grace Lee Boggs, lays in hospice. She spent her adult life >>>>>>> spanning 8 decades organizing social activism locally in Detroit and >>>>>>> nationally for many movements, civil rights and women's rights among >>>>>>> them. >>>>>>> I was excited to receive an award last month because she was on the >>>>>>> agenda >>>>>>> to receive a lifetime achievement award also but she sent a >>>>>>> representative >>>>>>> and her announcement came shortly afterward. Her story is quite >>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>> the deeper one digs into it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Toward the end of her life she leaned less toward civil disobedience >>>>>>> and more toward spiritual coherence of groups, actively and quietly >>>>>>> leading >>>>>>> local groups to greater organization and standards of living. For me, >>>>>>> her >>>>>>> movement to peaceful rebellion was key as I have always moved thusly >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> called to do so. Working "with" not against in a rebellion means >>>>>>> organizing >>>>>>> through the deconstruction, seeing past the chaos and predatory >>>>>>> participants that inevitably enter into the fray. Moving in spirit >>>>>>> during >>>>>>> rebellion gets past the right and wrong and into an vision of peak >>>>>>> organization for the group. The movement is movement toward the vision >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> everyone. A great deal of rubbish falls away in the process. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From my view, religion supports individuals and groups by lending a >>>>>>> structure to the seeking, until seeking is no longer necessary. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 7:30:31 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The 'Putinography' was subject to ridicule on our satirical show >>>>>>>> 'Have I Got News For You'. I have never been able to feel, say, Allan >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> Molly's religion or god, though I'm not really atheist, even if that's >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> answer I'd give on a survey. I don't get art with, say, Facil's eye >>>>>>>> either, and in science and maths know I don't visualise well but do >>>>>>>> sense >>>>>>>> patterns and have an almost religious demand for evidence - to the >>>>>>>> extent >>>>>>>> I'd say there is almost none in our courtrooms or what passes for >>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>> scrutiny. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Rebellion interests me firstly in the sense of its existence before >>>>>>>> the human mind. Even ants 'rebel' against their captors, killing >>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>> young, sometimes fighting against superior weapons technology (most >>>>>>>> slavers >>>>>>>> have mandibles like swords). The rebellion is not about freedom for >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> individual ants but their species. The rebels will die, but their >>>>>>>> species >>>>>>>> may prosper from the reduced slaving population. We tend to metaphors >>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>> 'co-evolution' and 'arms' races' in biology, but these are inadequate, >>>>>>>> transferring the all-too-human. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Religion, stripped of its institutionalism and rationalisation, >>>>>>>> seems a rebellion to peace and in and against nature at the same time. >>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>> is against self whilst also self-development. The language is almost >>>>>>>> impossible as we have barely learned the ambiguity and parochiality of >>>>>>>> language and are confused on originality. Mimicry is everywhere in >>>>>>>> nature >>>>>>>> - ants pretending to be spiders, spiders and beetles pretending to be >>>>>>>> ants >>>>>>>> - politicians pretending to be other than puppets of shadow control. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 19:51:39 UTC+1, facilitator wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I believe some of this. However I deviate in that I believe >>>>>>>>> churches are for the individual to hide among or be counted in the >>>>>>>>> group. >>>>>>>>> This is even more true of the priest, Rabbi, Imam, etc. Saying they >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> for the masses requires a much wider brush that I can't paint >>>>>>>>> liberally >>>>>>>>> with. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 12:27:43 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Churches are for basically for the masses .. There is a basic >>>>>>>>>> need to believe or explain the unknown. Transition into spirituality >>>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>> not take much. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Common religious views are a starting point from which to build >>>>>>>>>> ones spiritual view and experience. Within Catholicism there are >>>>>>>>>> basically >>>>>>>>>> 3 levels of spirituality. The first level , believe God is real go >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> church follow the rules. The second level is where people become >>>>>>>>>> aware of >>>>>>>>>> the presence of God, with him becoming a major part of their lives, >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> experiences like Molly spoke of not being uncommon. Theses >>>>>>>>>> experiences >>>>>>>>>> being a driving force. The Third level the roll of the church >>>>>>>>>> changes from >>>>>>>>>> spiritual guide to one of an observer and scribe. At this level >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> people are no longer the ' churches ' problem but that of God. The >>>>>>>>>> official >>>>>>>>>> church very much likes these people as part of the church, providing >>>>>>>>>> assistance when possible. >>>>>>>>>> Many centuries of observation allows the church to easily >>>>>>>>>> recognize the different levels. It really is an interesting source >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> study. >>>>>>>>>> The English are among the greatest slavers in the world.. >>>>>>>>>> Followed closely by islam. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I've done much of the magic in the secret society bit (in what >>>>>>>>>> was once Zaire). My friend (a tribal chief) and I were able to >>>>>>>>>> repeat the >>>>>>>>>> magic in my university office. Sadly, I get rather the reverse >>>>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>>>> of Molly in our churches. Jean-Claude was a thorough-going Marxist, >>>>>>>>>> though >>>>>>>>>> detested the Lenin-Mao lines. I tend to anarchist-mutualism myself >>>>>>>>>> and am >>>>>>>>>> never sure about Molly's higher plane - my sense is it emerges from >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> material conditions of possibility. Sleeping near ants is not >>>>>>>>>> recommended. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I was thinking of the potentials of religion to free us from >>>>>>>>>> biological structuration, perhaps in the sense of a poison-cure. It >>>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>>> both higher plane experience and chronic rationalisation - the >>>>>>>>>> latter, say, >>>>>>>>>> in jihad, crusades and the ant-like 'let's kill the Yazidi and steal >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>> women' (or Numbers 31). Many of our terms have this pharmikon >>>>>>>>>> status, >>>>>>>>>> though we allow them to dominate in 'good' form - education, >>>>>>>>>> government, >>>>>>>>>> freedom ... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> John Brown is often presented as a deluded religionist, but at >>>>>>>>>> least wasn't talking western philosophy at the top table of a slave >>>>>>>>>> economy. Religion these days seems silent on material matters. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 14:16:26 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I suppose that it does provide a place to hide in community from >>>>>>>>>>> the mundane and economic realities of the lower and middle classes >>>>>>>>>>> if one >>>>>>>>>>> is necessary. I've always found a church community to provide its >>>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>>> cultural limitations based on what all human groups offer, and not >>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>> insight into faith or support in crisis of faith. At the head of >>>>>>>>>>> each >>>>>>>>>>> church is a human being, struggling as we all do to make sense of >>>>>>>>>>> it all. >>>>>>>>>>> The tone of this culture depends invariable on the tone of the >>>>>>>>>>> leader and >>>>>>>>>>> they deviate more or less from the greater church dictates. Mass >>>>>>>>>>> itself is >>>>>>>>>>> little more than a ritual although once understood as a process to >>>>>>>>>>> higher >>>>>>>>>>> consciousness, can take you there, I've experienced it, and not >>>>>>>>>>> just in a >>>>>>>>>>> Catholic mass. Participating tribal ritual drumming can lead to >>>>>>>>>>> ecstasies. >>>>>>>>>>> Much if not all of this is lost on most congregations, in my >>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 7:03:02 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Many of our terms for freedom have religious origin in the >>>>>>>>>>>> rough phrase 'freedom from debt' - more and much wider than than >>>>>>>>>>>> Xtian >>>>>>>>>>>> kicking over the tables of the money-lenders. There have been >>>>>>>>>>>> many debt >>>>>>>>>>>> jubilees in history, often on the death of a 'king'. Debt slavery >>>>>>>>>>>> is and >>>>>>>>>>>> has been much wider in human communities than most seem to know. >>>>>>>>>>>> We are >>>>>>>>>>>> not widely informed on biology and anthropology in this regard. >>>>>>>>>>>> Religion >>>>>>>>>>>> can raise the best and worst in us. Much of it raises the notion >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> adherents as some kind of chosen people, sometimes restricted to >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> in-group blood line. The Yazidi are such an example. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Chimps seem to have a form of 'religion' connected with the >>>>>>>>>>>> seasons - as many of our belief systems. I saw footage of some >>>>>>>>>>>> southeast >>>>>>>>>>>> Asian spiders this morning - they lay eggs in a central tower >>>>>>>>>>>> surrounded by >>>>>>>>>>>> a henge - immediately bringing Stonehenge to my mind, though they >>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>> hack stones to shape. Religion raises Facil's 'we might both >>>>>>>>>>>> (all) be >>>>>>>>>>>> wrong' phrase to my mind, something often missing in our argument >>>>>>>>>>>> despite >>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge that we can make many equally powerful arguments about >>>>>>>>>>>> the same >>>>>>>>>>>> stuff (Sextus Empiricus). To judge between arguments we need >>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>> mystical (religious). I say this as a scientist knowing magic >>>>>>>>>>>> wands don't >>>>>>>>>>>> work. Religion could be rebellion, a postmodern moment, >>>>>>>>>>>> oversimplifying to >>>>>>>>>>>> the extreme, of incredulity towards metanarratives like >>>>>>>>>>>> government, law and >>>>>>>>>>>> economics - a dreamtime against material and spiritual debt-rules. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Black holes have recently become 'grey', but dreamtime might >>>>>>>>>>>> challenge the geometry we use. Global warming and much else on >>>>>>>>>>>> pollution >>>>>>>>>>>> challenges us to think 'This Changes Everything' (Naomi Klein) - >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> economics of 'we can never afford to do the right things' in my >>>>>>>>>>>> view. So >>>>>>>>>>>> what does religion offer on the postmodern moment of rebellion? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> -- >> >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> ""Minds Eye"" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > ""Minds Eye"" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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