Molly is the owner. I think I was once, until some tired night when I was footling about. Now I list as manager.
On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 2:15:51 PM UTC, Gabby wrote: > > You could help to clarify the state of the arts here by telling us in > plain English prose, what the real power relations here on "Minds Eye" are > at the moment. Who is the owner? Who is/are the moderator(s)? > > 2015-02-11 14:41 GMT+01:00 archytas <[email protected]>: > >> Like a solicitor refusing to explain her bill.perhaps. >> >> >> On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 1:16:25 PM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote: >>> >>> Nothing more than a point of reference. Life is far beyond delusion yet >>> it would seem there is nothing but delusion. >>> People can discuss it all they want. I am not adding more or going to >>> explain my views on reality. >>> >>> تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين >>> Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres >>> Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 2:11 PM >>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Delusions >>> >>> So why say this in a discussion group Allan? Why should the rest of us >>> expand anything? >>> >>> On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 12:59:24 PM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>> >>>> Delusions are easy to come by. In my life time I have Experienced the >>>> Reality of God and the effect of one drop of water. >>>> >>>> No Tony I will not explain or expand. >>>> >>>> تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين >>>> Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres >>>> Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Sent: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 12:54 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Delusions >>>> >>>> recognizing and examining our self delusions requires that we look >>>> within us for answers, something most of us are not hardwired for as most >>>> are extroverts. Most cultures do not support introspection and offer >>>> mandates for action and group acceptance. Understanding our own delusions >>>> means understanding our inner workings and we seem trained from the >>>> beginning to turn away from such shenanigans. Understanding how our >>>> communication patterns are used to force our will or view on others, how >>>> our agendas are more important than relationships, how trust in the world, >>>> ourselves, life (or lack of) effects us can all clear up delusion but I >>>> rarely see anyone having a breakthrough like this. Instead, I see >>>> everyone >>>> grinding away on the same old tracks. >>>> >>>> For me, chaos and struggle around me sometimes builds to such a head >>>> that I find myself needing to let go of any expectation or even vision of >>>> what is to come next, take a deep breath, and continue. It has been a long >>>> time since I entered the dark night of the soul, but find it eventually >>>> comes if I don't do this as needed. In my life there is a harmony that I >>>> feel more or less strongly depending on the day or sometimes the moment. >>>> If >>>> I can find my way back to this simple harmony, my experience in the world >>>> is peaceful. I get weary of struggle, angst, anger, opposition although >>>> have learned not to avoid any of it either. Delusion can come from a lack >>>> of information or understanding, or incorrect info and understanding. So >>>> what is the "correct" standard? The best answer for me has always come >>>> internally. I've stopped expecting order in experience, but have notice a >>>> coherence in its elements that mean more than cultural or group or >>>> historic >>>> norms or patterns. I define it in poetic terms and describe it as simple >>>> harmony. You may call it delusion. For me it is quite clear. >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 7:35:54 PM UTC-5, archytas wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Francis Bacon classified the intellectual fallacies of his time under >>>>> four headings which he called idols. He distinguished them as idols of >>>>> the >>>>> Tribe, idols of the e, idols of the Marketplace and idols of the Theatre. >>>>> An idol is an image, in this case held in the mind, which receives >>>>> veneration but is without substance in itself. Bacon did not regard idols >>>>> as symbols, but rather as fixations. They expand a bit like this: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Tribe >>>>> >>>>> The example of desiring to see more order in the universe than is >>>>> actually there is one of his examples of an idol of the tribe. He thinks >>>>> that we all suffer from that one. >>>>> >>>>> 2. Cave >>>>> >>>>> An example of an idol of the cave (one of Bacon's examples) is that >>>>> some minds are more drawn to new things and new ideas than they are to >>>>> what >>>>> has been around for a long time, while other minds are more drawn to >>>>> "tradition" and "old school" ideas and ways than they are to newness. >>>>> Bacon >>>>> thinks we should become aware what our own tendency is so that we can >>>>> make >>>>> corrections for it. He hopes that by becoming aware of our own mind's >>>>> tendencies toward loving novelty or tradition that we might be able to >>>>> "correct" for them and then hopefully see things more clearly and truly. >>>>> >>>>> 3. Marketplace >>>>> >>>>> We often use words very loosely in common discourse. Bacon sees >>>>> nothing wrong with that when we are just speaking ordinary language with >>>>> friends and family. But, when it comes to trying to describe the world >>>>> accurately and precisely, we should be aware of our tendency to use words >>>>> loosely and should try to correct for it. When we are trying to speak >>>>> precisely we should probably not say things like "The mountain is out >>>>> today" (anyone outside of the Puget Sound area wouldn't have a clue what >>>>> this means); or "The sun went under a cloud" (the sun did not go >>>>> anywhere, >>>>> let along underneath something); or "The sun came up this morning" (the >>>>> earth actually just rotated). None of those sentences is precisely true, >>>>> and if we use language imprecisely like this it can sometimes >>>>> accidentally >>>>> lead to huge misapprehensions about the world. Bacon thinks this misuse >>>>> of >>>>> words and language causes far more problems than we realize. >>>>> >>>>> 4. Theatre >>>>> >>>>> If you can think of someone you know who has recently bought into a >>>>> whole new religion or philosophy or psychology, you can probably see how >>>>> they have suddenly come to interpret everything in the universe according >>>>> to their new world view. That world view has become the new lens through >>>>> which they perceive and interpret everything in their world. What Bacon >>>>> says, though, is that we all do this. We all interpret the world through >>>>> the lens of our own little world view. It's just easier to see other >>>>> people >>>>> doing it than it is to see ourselves doing it. Bacon thinks we should >>>>> become aware of how these world views shape and distort our own >>>>> perceptions >>>>> of the world so that we might be able to correct for it a bit. >>>>> >>>>> This is old work. My questions are about how we recognise the 'second >>>>> head' as a delusion yet move hardly at all on obvious political delusions >>>>> like economics, votes counting, social care, public ignorance and the >>>>> making invisible of many social issues. For me, deep questions on self >>>>> are >>>>> involved. The internet self is unlikely to be, as Tony says, the same as >>>>> the 'real'one - but then we have know for much longer than the internet >>>>> people don't say the same things in different contexts. In fact the man >>>>> or >>>>> woman in the bar often looks totally different the morning after, let >>>>> alone >>>>> what the politician says in a speech compared with when she is with her >>>>> backroom boys in the spin room. >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 10:17:04 PM UTC, archytas wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> At least with my knowledge of delusions I can imagine certain people >>>>>> growing a second head overnight and shooting the wrong spare. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 10:11:09 PM UTC, archytas wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That seems to run to form Gabby. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 10:06:43 PM UTC, Gabby wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Facil picked up your question and gave his answer, I agreed and >>>>>>>> then came Allan barking at Facil and I told Allan to watch his tongue >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> leave to his own thread. Only then did you enter the group timeline to >>>>>>>> start your big daddy has come home show. Now tell me what my deceitful >>>>>>>> intent was ... Or better, tell me tomorrow, I'm off for today. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Am Dienstag, 10. Februar 2015 schrieb archytas : >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The only people I meet like that tend to be online students Tony. >>>>>>>>> We use Skype video conferencing for a few sessions, so have actually >>>>>>>>> seen >>>>>>>>> each other. I'm quieter than people imagine, though none have yet >>>>>>>>> said >>>>>>>>> 'uglier'. I'm very prone to catch whatever bugs go around university >>>>>>>>> environments too, so rather like electronic distance. With >>>>>>>>> colleagues, the >>>>>>>>> situation is we know a lot more about each other than most in online >>>>>>>>> encounters. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My version has 'confusion' written through it. I say something, >>>>>>>>> Gabby takes it another way, or knows what I intended and chooses >>>>>>>>> another >>>>>>>>> slant for whatever reason. Online, I assume she has a sense of >>>>>>>>> humour and >>>>>>>>> a good turn with words. Deception is not part of this in the first >>>>>>>>> place. >>>>>>>>> Just guesses with less risk than so called reality. I suppose the >>>>>>>>> classic >>>>>>>>> online deceiver is the groomer - where the intent is to set up and >>>>>>>>> image >>>>>>>>> and then meet the victim. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 7:54:18 PM UTC, facilitator wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 2:11:33 PM UTC-5, archytas >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The delusion that we are what we project is interesting Tony. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "We claim to be what we project". Your version allows for >>>>>>>>>> reality mine allows for dishonesty. I think most people want to >>>>>>>>>> project a >>>>>>>>>> filtered image of themselves enough so that if we ever meet people >>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>> we've only conversed with online we become slightly astonished how >>>>>>>>>> different they appear and act in "real life". >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in >>>>>>>>> the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ >>>>>>>>> topic/minds-eye/2_ICOWzarWY/unsubscribe. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email >>>>>>>>> to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> -- >> >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/2_ICOWzarWY/unsubscribe. >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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