You are a better man for the job than I. My work song would shake while digging this grave. Progress marches on as they say, I will try to assemble something after my wolves settle down. On Mar 27, 2015 8:26 PM, "archytas" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Gabby (or Gabriel) has raised some interesting points and left us unable > to trust each other. This is a classic intelligence trick. And obviously > hesheorit has the place bugged. Probably doing the spontaneity bit right > now Molly. We have similar classroom scenes. And even as an army > statement, 'no man left behind' is a lie. > > I think we should continue, but even Molly and I can't trust each other's > identities as not Gabby-Alter. There are ways through this. > > On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 7:59:43 PM UTC, Molly wrote: >> >> I'd say the time for such debates is now, within the relative calm. I >> completely understand and applaud the notion of giving people the space to >> learn and self govern. The no child left behind philosophy fell apart in >> the US when the inclusion lines fell so far beyond kids that could learn >> and self govern that the classrooms became chaotic and students became >> witnesses to teachers trying to manage disorder, and only able to do so. >> Kids throwing furniture, spontaneously masturbating on a regular basis and >> never passing a test set the class tempo and every class seemed to have a >> child or few that required al the attention. Teachers were frustrated >> because the old system of having schools capable of handling such students >> were already in place, but the rolls were diminished and very few students >> attended because of the new guidelines. It was costing taxpayers more and >> their kids were not getting better education, any of them. We were never >> leaving any of the kids behind, educating them all. But the labels of >> special education were so traumatizing that the grand experiment began and >> failed miserably. >> >> I know first hand the struggle of families with members suffering from a >> mental illness. Once did an internship on a suicide hotline. 90% of the >> callers weren't contemplating suicide at all, just looking for someone to >> talk to. The service had to set up guidelines for how many times such >> people could call a day, how long the conversation could be, what language >> was and wasn't allowed etc. It was really a community service for families >> dealing with these family members, as having people to talk to and vent to >> gave the families some measure of relief. I learned a lot about people in >> those six months. And I think we should all have an active "study in >> humanity" going on, contributing through that study in some positive, >> compassionate way. Whether through work, church, a swim club, sitting on a >> bench and watching the world go by with the occasional conversation with >> strangers - whatever. I don't think we should ever stop learning about the >> people around us and how we relate to them. It is a powerful mirror of life. >> >> >> On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 2:26:48 PM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>> >>> Listening to mad people falls within the principles of education as an >>> aim in itself, though there clearly are limits, even if it can be tough to >>> establish what they are. We could have some cracking debates on such as >>> this. Of course, you can't have the debates (which might spawn such as >>> books) if some miserable sods flood it with nonsense and libellous attacks. >>> >>> On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 12:52:18 PM UTC, Molly wrote: >>>> >>>> Ed Norton was in a movie called the 25th hour that I really liked, and >>>> not just because his character's name was Monty Brogan. The plot line >>>> unfolded in the 24 hours before Monty went to jail and at one point, his >>>> friend turned to him and said, "wouldn't it be nice if you could take your >>>> dog to jail?" The chances of that happening anywhere seem slim but gee, >>>> wouldn't it be nice? >>>> >>>> I've never enjoyed competition but saw two boys through a few decades >>>> of it and watched the fruition of decency it can create in terms of >>>> cooperative effort, team work, camaraderie, strategy and physical prowess. >>>> Accepting victory and defeat with grace is probably the most valuable >>>> lesson that I saw them learn. When a group can get beyond personality and >>>> move as one toward a common goal it can be a beautiful thing. When that is >>>> obviously absent in a group the dysfunction can be painful to watch and the >>>> fruit becomes toxic or dies before edible. Competitive spirit when married >>>> to generosity of spirit is glorious. I saw my son help another player up >>>> off the field that had just tackled him hard (found out later he told him, >>>> "good hit!") I also saw him clash helmets so hard with a guy before the >>>> play started that it was heard loudly throughout the stadium, walk off and >>>> sit himself on the sidelines, taking the 20 yard penalty with his team. Was >>>> told later it was a move calculated by the team to stop the trash talk. (We >>>> won't get into the neck injury) But stomping on someone's knee to try to >>>> get him out of the game, while seen by some as just part of the competitive >>>> spirit, takes us into that win at all cost mindset where the honest >>>> competition is lost and the flavor of war is set. >>>> >>>> Free speech is a tricky thing when speech becomes more about inflicting >>>> pain and inflaming conflict than communicating. I thought it interesting >>>> that the moderators were seen as beast masters by the trolls in this group >>>> over the years, as if those roles are a necessary part of the psychodrama. >>>> It may be the nature of an internet group and the reason that most have a >>>> life span. Most reasonable people walk away from perpetual conflict. There >>>> are groups on the internet that thrive on it, and all the members engage. >>>> Then there are trolls on the internet whose personalities get more of a >>>> charge from the feeling of victory having disbanded a functional group with >>>> conflict. How does free speech come into play when speech is used as a >>>> weapon of war? That use may be ingrained in US culture, with political ads >>>> designed to smear and manipulate voters running for months before every >>>> election. I am sure that is what makes Netflix's business model successful. >>>> Gotta be. >>>> >>>> Allan has a point about the narcissist. Using words as weapon is a >>>> major part of that personality disorder and the flaming narcissist goes off >>>> at the drop of a hat, willing to tell you everything that is wrong with you >>>> and how you ruin everything. but I think somewhere in each of us there is a >>>> narcissist, so fascinated with their own reflection that their awareness is >>>> stunted by their inability to look beyond it. It becomes a disorder when >>>> the fascination becomes obsession and projection, and war with experience >>>> becomes all that is known. >>>> >>>> Are we obligated to listen to the ravings of a mad man indulging his >>>> free speech? Are we entitled to inflict words of hate that can lead to >>>> violence or destruction (yelling fire in a crowded room?) Is the prevention >>>> of the destruction of a productive group a line that should be drawn for >>>> hate speech? Or is it a line drawn too soon? >>>> >>>> No soul left behind is certainly noble. But at the level of soul, all >>>> that is required is unconditional love. We are not required to submit >>>> ourselves as target practice. >>>> >>>> I have no desire to be anyone's beast master. Nor do I want to see this >>>> group die. If it can be preserved, it should be preserved because by all >>>> accounts, it offers a place to dialogue like no other. The guidelines to >>>> this group have taken many forms over the years but have the same essential >>>> message. Reasonable, respectful dialogue is the space they provide. Is >>>> anyone who gets a charge by continually violating the guidelines (and the >>>> members) invoking their free speech or engaging in war? >>>> >>>> Is there an example of a society that successfully operates with a >>>> governing structure of anarchy? I would be interested to know. Because I >>>> would like to experience a world where laws and social contracts were not >>>> necessary. I haven't found it yet. >>>> >>>> On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 3:38:07 AM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I think you are right there Neil. >>>>> >>>>> تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين >>>>> Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 7:20 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: War, good god y'all, what is it good for? >>>>> >>>>> We may have been closer to Nous sommes tous Gabbie than we know Allan >>>>> - almost had to switch myself on and off this morning to make sure I >>>>> hadn't >>>>> become one of her alters. She put so much effort in I thought she must be >>>>> some kind of crooked scheme going, but con men usually try and use offered >>>>> exchanges of humour to manipulate. I suspect most people don't really >>>>> empathise much beyond genetic imprinting and sex. Odd stuff. >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 5:44:31 AM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the problem lies in people having narcissistic personality >>>>>> disorder. The people involved know who they are and about their problem >>>>>> . >>>>>> . Sadly they have no desire to change. >>>>>> >>>>>> This probably the problem with a lot of groups not just ours. This >>>>>> narcissistic people drive away quality people as they have no desire to >>>>>> put >>>>>> up with them. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين >>>>>> Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> Sent: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 1:00 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: War, good god y'all, what is it good for? >>>>>> >>>>>> Many google groups are effectively dead. You have to wonder, in >>>>>> front of undergraduates, whether anyone does rational discourse at all. >>>>>> Hardly any of them will be interested in learning how to work things out >>>>>> for themselves and trying to give them the opportunity is something >>>>>> resisted very hard. We run feedback exercises, but in staff development >>>>>> events the chances of it all starting with a 10 second biopic in which >>>>>> you >>>>>> learn the French teacher next to you teaches French are remarkably high. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm seriously interested in how free speech is stopped. This is >>>>>> connected with Molly's question in this thread. The bickering, >>>>>> personation, alters, slagging, barking and the rest look like scenes from >>>>>> British secondary schools - and this is where I would judge most >>>>>> knowledge >>>>>> content expressed over the years. Of course, I can hear the old fart >>>>>> speaking this. The jaded lecturer who cast pearls before swine now sits >>>>>> in >>>>>> condescension on all the teecher mincers who thought they were smarter >>>>>> and >>>>>> cooler than Bart Simpson, grown to druggie failure as adults. I know the >>>>>> thinking in this is not good enough, partly because I know a huge amount >>>>>> taught in schools and universities is simply crap - though not quite in >>>>>> the >>>>>> way the kids themselves feel this. >>>>>> >>>>>> My approach has been to look at the "secret pleasures of >>>>>> bureaucracy". Slagging Gabby, for instance, is very easy because she >>>>>> even >>>>>> pisses off her (?) own alters - yet what are the "secret pleasures" of >>>>>> such >>>>>> engagement? The possibilities are legion and disturbing - yet what could >>>>>> be more disturbing of the mannered society in which many of our kids >>>>>> can't >>>>>> remember what they did in school yesterday and any adults I've polled on >>>>>> general and scientific understanding over 30 years live in cloud cuckoo >>>>>> land. One can start a lecture by such polling and a comparison of human >>>>>> knowledge with the performance of chimpanzees on the same multiple choice >>>>>> tests. The same chimps are turning up by the end of the module too. >>>>>> >>>>>> If we wanted to, we could offer "her (?)" as slagging - hinting "she" >>>>>> is, say, a cross-dresser (I know a few and wouldn't want to upset most of >>>>>> them - slag +) etc. Few seem to get that decent people can be very >>>>>> "impolite" in actual friendship and a lot of the mannered stuff covers >>>>>> appalling war-like hostility and lies about in our society without real >>>>>> help. Most murders and brutality have such pathetic "origins" I can >>>>>> barely >>>>>> relate the tales without people thinking I'm making them up. >>>>>> Anthropology >>>>>> tells similar tales. In the Balkans and Cyprus you can find communities >>>>>> with inter-marriage, shared wealth and friendships one day, killing each >>>>>> other the next. Genocides are not uncommon and Jews are not over-often >>>>>> the >>>>>> victims (think how impossible this debate is and the turds who would make >>>>>> me a holocaust denier). I suspect "secret pleasures" in hating other >>>>>> people, even that the relevant traumas may be generations old. >>>>>> >>>>>> My guess has long been that most free speech can't start because >>>>>> people get used to living without knowledge because it is much easier to >>>>>> cheat following fashion or modelling on role. I'd love to get into >>>>>> discussion of such and to an extent can with books and papers (there is a >>>>>> 'fashion' theory of learning and exploitation). What we need to imagine >>>>>> is >>>>>> why various clowns and barkers, those gossiping loudly at the back or >>>>>> even >>>>>> those good adaptive children who want to know which page of the textbook >>>>>> to >>>>>> copy, want to stop us having our free speech. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, March 26, 2015 at 10:50:26 PM UTCes, archytas wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was just thinking I don't go around chasing the tail pipes of >>>>>>> north bound trams, when the modern art of MOMA dawned on me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thursday, March 26, 2015 at 4:07:19 PM UTC, facilitator wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Neil, I wish I could sculpt with metal to the degree you sculpt >>>>>>>> with words! I would have been in MOMA years ago. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 26, 2015 at 12:01:31 PM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was impressed when I thought she was a bot. One had to admire >>>>>>>>> that almost human quality. Now we know she's just a daft old bat >>>>>>>>> addicted >>>>>>>>> to white board wipe vapour or a runaway from the Rocky Horror Show, >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> disappointment would be intense if we'd ever cared for substrate >>>>>>>>> dependant >>>>>>>>> mind fetish. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> -- > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > ""Minds Eye"" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
