Zeev
I had information that I dug up on Pulp Fiction posters, and I tried
to get to the root of the Star Wars "hairy belt" posters, but I never
had any information on the minty whites.
Dave Lieberman had a plausable tale for the hairy belts and Bruce as
well as LAMP did something on the minty whites
I actually did not complete a deal with a collector of inserts this
year because he bought most of them on fleaBay and I had no way of
verifying them.
I did early this year have an ESB 1/2 sheet that was most likely a
minty white (it's the only hs identified)
I had sold it in my Star Wars auction and Phil Wages who was the
buyer returned it after which I was able to determine it was fake (I
have a real one coming up shortly)
the big problem we have with minty whites:
NOBODY WHO HAS HAD THEM COMPARED TO REAL POSTERS HAS HAD THE COURTESY
OF SHARING PHOTOS IF THEY HAVE THEM. SO ALL WE HAVE TO RELY ON IS A
LIST THAT DOESN'T HAVE ANY DESCRIPTIONS WHY THEY ARE PHONIES
Clearly an issue that needs to be corrected, for the entire listing
of them, so that we can really see for ourselves that they are minty
whites. As such, all we have are vague ideas of what to do about them.
I suggest that if Bruce (or anyone else) does have this information,
and he wants to push auction houses to be more transparent, that he
does us all a favor and post this information where it can be
accessed. Otherwise it's a scandal that will continue to make the
rounds for decades as we will not be able to pull these posters from
circulation.
Rich
At 03:16 PM 10/12/2009, lobby card invasion wrote:
Tom,
I'm a little surprised by what you're saying, because I thought that
there is a close to general consensus, for the most part, that there
are fake Inserts circulating in the hobby, that these inserts are
from major titles of the late 70's and early 80's, and that ONE of
their characteristics is the "minty white" card stock they are printed on.
This issue was discussed at great lengths everywhere, including
MOPO. Quite a few leading members in this hobby(Bruce Hershenson,
Dan Richards, Richard Halegua) have investigated this matter,and
wrote extensively about it. When you call all that "propaganda",
you are implying that some people have a sinister motive, and have
something to gain from labelling perfectly good inserts, as being
fake. I simply don't think that is the case.
You also say:"we never have aggreed on what posters we are even
claiming are the minty whites"
I'm not sure what you are saying here?
If you are asking about the TITLES, for which fakes of the "minty
white" vatiety are known to exist, that list also appeared here on
MOPO. (Can anybody help me out here...?).
If you're saying that the fakes were not adequately describes,
again, I can refer you to Hershenson who examined many of them, side
by side along with authentic, legitimate ones, and described his
findings on this list.
Best, Zeev
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:[email protected]>Tom Martin
To: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Fw: [MOPO] Provenance...............
The minty whites have never been proven because there is no proof
that people are even talking about the same posters in question...
Ive heard titles... and there could have been reporoductions of the same titles
that could alos have been just good clean copies.. th e concept of
being MINTy whites and looking to good is rediculous.
Lets understnd that when NSS orderd posters they came from all over
printers in east coats , west coast
etc... and each printer could run the same title and ther could be
mild differances,, they may even have used a slight differant paper
Run... Like wood.. Lots vary slightly.. so without knowing certain the answer
I do know that several dealers in 80s bought lots of studio issued
titles as I personally bought from them...
these titles were sold for 3.00 each for all the big titles that now
sell for 100 300
so there was no reason to repo when you could buy them for 3.00 as
to make 27 x 41 back then would need a 5-10K run and all the plate
and we had to also do color seperations for a 1 shett would cost
1000s afetr film and plates.
so the other thing was inserts never sold much.. so if someone
repoed on that stock it would be expensive ... so that leaves the
titles.. alien . bladreunner ad star wars.. and some others.. Most
of the titles zI could buy from the closed found lot in the 80s were
from national screen when they closed clevelam office..
they were saved from the dump// and many of the titles NO one would
ever think to reprint liek hanky panky
gene wilder.. the invesment would be too much..
No maybe they reprinted another lot that people are confusing with
the actual found lot that was unused Mint copies...
also the variance inposter styles... that was true on many titles
again because like for instance the mexican and canada sheet would
vary art.. so did some Usa titles..
The reason no one can agree on the minty whites is that its all been
propaganda with no concrete facts
just rumors alaone with the parties not being in a Room all together
to share the samplles and the history
of where the samples came from... I could tell you I was there the
day they were printed .. loaded in my car and took home.... all you
could do is get a signed afaadavitt attesting that- Right>? If I had
a invoice from the printer Dated with sigs from that printer then I
would have solid proof.. However since the entire Movie
poster liniage is based on the pedigree of dealers syaing in thier
OPINION .. Its all opinion unless
someone has documents that will prove the origin of where the poster
came from.. same with saying its bootleg.. the s2 I assume as I
havent seen one has some telltale signs ,, one the size seems very huge
and it was taken i believe from a archival shot from AFI that should
have some sort of mark or way to link it back. Plus it sounds like
the paper is of new stock and not vintage . however I hvae no
experiance with these But Rich seems to as hes in vegas.
The jury in my hnble opinion has never been in on the minty whites
because we never have aggreed on what posters we are even claiming
are the minty whites... there could be 3 -4 generations alone..
The person that I bought from only tryed to save good titles from
the dump not all the lousy ones.. anyone that has sold posters in
volume gets tired of storeing duds for years .. and they add up.
Richard Evans wrote:
two or three dealers could argue as to the MINTY whites origin
unless there was Bonifide evidence as to where they wer printed..
I think now though, the minty whites have been accepted as fakes.
And what the main source is or was.
Though that didn't prevent people on here saying that source was ok
person, as long as you're careful.
Why anyone would take that attitude about that particular source of
fakes, and a totally different attitude to (alleged dealer in
fakes) Haggard is beyond me.
Also recall the minty whites importance being undermined in
comparison to the Universal because of the financial scale of the fraud.
Universal $2 million estimate, and counting, minty whites, spread
thinner but wider.
Is the money traded for minty whites absolutely known to
significantly smaller than the Universals?
I doubt it is known, but if so, so what?
Sorry, but all that smacks of hypocrisy.
On 12 Oct 2009, at 18:37, Tom Martin wrote:
steven _ your posts are interesteing however... hers the important
thing to understand.......
the entire Movie poster buiness is based on a simple fact... It
was never cleared in past to be sold, leased or given away as
indicated on bottom of most posters.. so in effect its all stolen
materials that were to be returned
to the studios and thetre poster depots....
that said.... most people would not disclose the oriigin of where
they received it as it might be a studio employee or excecutive
that slipped it out the backdoor of the office...
Otherwise how did any get out? Ive bought from people that
worked in theatres and most would not want there names told as it
could jeprodise there jobs.... I even bought from people in
chains that handle the advertising.....
However in vinatge material even if I bought from the cousin of
the theatre owner what does that have to do with the origin of the
poster itself?? even people in the biz received bootlegs.... and
all you have stated is that
someone made you feel comfortable withe the buy because they
verbal told you they attested its source- Correct?
so In the final chapter .. two or three dealers could argue as to
the MINTY whites origin unless there was Bonifide evidence as to
where they wer printed.. and where the originals with printer afadavits and
witnesses and bonifide proof... Otherwise its he said/she said and
speculation as to the source.
Unless you were there in 1931 to see it printed and had
documents the only way to athenticate posters
would be to have a special scientific test done.... Otherwise the
authenticating will come from Professioanl Poster dealers OPINIONs
as to its originality based on experiance, and knowledge over years.
In about every area professionals have been fooled like currency
and any sector , as forgers are keen observers and can copy almost
anything because of new technology. and old school treatments.
In the case of Movie posters the probvenance has been distrupted
by many people who dont wish disclosure most times or also because
no one ever thought a 1.00 piece of throw away advertising would be worth 200K
because when they do.. eeryone hordes the items as " Investmensts"
as is seen with the glut of collectables
that consumers feated on like cababge patch, beanie babies , and
even comics and posters,,, playing on greed
of people that wanted to Invest in something long term with modest
cash outlay...
Ive always maintained... Buy it for the value of seeing incredible
art,, enjoy it.. dont buy for condition,, buy
for the experiance of the artist, author, or medium of art.....
and then pass it on and allow others to experiance it and see it
, hear it , because life is so damn short.. buy the time you
accumulate , then you need to store.. and if you leave in a box..
then it might get pitched by someone like a relative that sees no
value anyway.,
and as far as investments.. sure you can make lots of money if you
bough back in pre- 80s and even now
there are probably deals,,, however until the hobby aggree on
standards and a authority to monitor whats
being sold and can respect that judgement ,, Its all wild west
and everything and anything gos until they get popped. Thankfully
there are some honest people out there to help keep things honest,
as for the auction house that told you it was a legitaimate card ,
I would think you could read terms of the sale and see if they
offer money back warranty if found to be bogus goods.. If so if
you have several dealers of old paper concur its not real then ask
them to give you a letter offering refund if found bogus down the
road and perhaps that would help if you ever need to sell the
item. There may also be legal remidies I suggest you seek legal
council if you suspect you need more relief.
However I think people are not logically looking at the entire
scope of the Movie poster hobby clearly.
It was never menat to be a titled industry like cars or items sold
to a group as a collectable.. the NSS numbers where just to
organize release dates and the posters in the NSS system and for thetares
The structure or infrastructure was never in place to do what you
would like done... Its basically word of mouth, and the trail will
stop or get cloudy at many points.. especially on older titles
sice most of the players are dead and theatres goone and industry
peopel dead and gone.... so that leaves dealers like me and others
who are soon to be senile and forget thier names so you better
hope you have a original Bubba!
just hoep fishler Frietag Bruce and Morrie and the others live to
be 129 years old then youll be ok..
Or all hell well break loose and the world will be taken over by
the minty white guys...
best, Tom
old poster dealer that is getting old. and cranky
Steven F. Poole wrote:
Bruce and all-
When its all said and done, I guess the bottom line of the
whole auction format does not allow for ME the buyer to know who
YOU the consignor are (unless explicitely stated in the auction
description who the consignor is).
Here was my scenaro in a nutshell: I made a purchase of
a Universal lobby card in a major auction at about a high bid of
$1000 last spring ('09). I know that that dollar amount in
value is peanuts compared to some other Universal pieces but
after the fake Universal scandal broke, I got a little bit
concerned about the card I had from the auction from just a few
months ago and called the auction house to ask where it came
from. I was simply told it was from a "reputable collector"
and nothing more would be revealed by the auction house rep. in
the conversation. So, I have no knowledge of where this card
came from except the auction house sold it to me. For those
who might be proactive in the fallout of this whole fake issue,
this is a real dead end in trying to maintain as certain as
humanly possible authenticity of an item purchased.
Another example.....Recently I had a call from an individual
with whom I had been involved in a trade for some
material. The piece that this individual had was a horror
piece that they had a question about concerning
authenticity. We went back to the person that I had received
it from and they were able to verify where they had purchased it
from earlier which satisfied my trading partner who is the
current owner of the piece. Total disclosure and following
the links of the chain of ownership helped to calm the concerns
of the person who currently owns the piece.
I guess that is what I was seeking in my concerns regarding the
item that I had "won" from the auction house.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:[email protected]>Bruce Hershenson
To: <mailto:[email protected]>Steven F. Poole
Cc: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 5:23 AM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Fw: [MOPO] Provenance...............
Steven
You have asked this in kind of a confusing way, but I think I am
getting your point.
1) Even though they won't implicitly admit it (for unfathomable
reasons) it is clear that several leading auctions and dealers
sold these fakes (presumedly unknowing) as originals, and at
least one indirectly states they have refunded the buyers they
inadvertantly duped.
2) They surely have a record of who consigned what, so they know
exactly who consigned each and every fake they have refunded.
3) Therefore, they really absolutely SHOULD contact the buyers of
any pieces that were also consigned by those same individuals, to
alert the buyers that they MAY have purchased a fake, and that
they should have their purchased checked by a talented
professional, especially if they have any doubts themselves.
Could some of the consignors of the fakes have acquired them
second hand or third hand and have only consigned the one fake,
and all other items from that consignor were real? Sure, but
until the fakes consigned by those individuals are identified,
extra precautions must be taken, or this disease will continue to
plague our hobby for years to come, as these so-called "buried"
fakes keep re-surfacing.
I take Steven's point to be that the auctions should be studying
their consignment records and notifiying buyers of items
consigned by those who also consigned fakes, or at least letting
them know that the item came from a consignor who also consigned
one or more known fakes if the purchaser inquires, as Steven did
(of course, they don't have to name the consignor, just reveal
the vital info that they also consigned one or more known fakes).
Do I think the auction houses and dealers who sold fakes will do
this? I don't know, but I do know that this is a great
opportunity for them to step up to the plate and show exactl why
they deserve those hefty 20% buyers premiums all these years, and
to take a real leadership role in removing this awful taint from our hobby.
Bruce
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 3:13 AM, Steven F. Poole
<<mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]> wrote:
James-
Its not that I would want to go to the consignor to ask for
money back.....what I really would like to know on a
questionable item is the "chain" that it came from. If one of
the "alleged masterminds" of the Universal Horror Scandal was
the consignor, I would think that is cause for alarm. Also, if
it came from someone who is reputable, that would be a
reassurance (unless, of course, the donsignor obtained it from
one of the "alleged masterminds").
Guess there really is no way to be assured on this issue
except having someone you trust examine it. It just seems the
auction houses / dealers have the upper hand in this as they
hold the key to at least begin a provenance check and the buyer
does not have the key to fit that lock.
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:[email protected]>James Richard
To: <mailto:[email protected]>Steven F. Poole
Cc: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Fw: [MOPO] Provenance...............
Steven,
Yes. But even if the seller/auction house did reveal the
consigner or name-provenance of the item you purchased, for
practical purposes your only recourse if you are unhappy with the
item is to return it to the seller/auction house you bought it
from and get your money back from them. The fact that the
seller/auction house said they had the item on consignment from
say, Brad Pitt, does not really entitle you to go to directly to
Brad Pitt and ask for your money back. Brad did not sell the item
to you -- the seller/auction house did. That's the whole point of
consigning something to a seller or auction house.
Sure, if you wanted to pay for it, a lawyer could probably make
the argument that by consigning the item to the seller/auction
house that Brad Pitt was somehow responsible in a vague kind of
"implied warranty" fashion -- some lawyers will argue any
position no matter how tenuous -- but I wouldn't count on winning
that one in court. Selling individual used collectible items "as
is" (which is essentially what we doing here) is not the same
thing as the Ford Motor Company manufacturing millions of
automobiles and selling them through a network on independent
franchised dealerships.
In lieu of some kind of convincing third-party authentication
opinion certificate, I think you will start seeing sellers and
auction houses putting aside this traditional "confidentiality"
business and clearly stating provenances and consigners on the
higher-priced items. In other fields of collecting, such as comic
books, if an item is from a well-known collector's horde, that
provenance is almost always mentioned by the seller -- it adds
cachet to the item and will often significantly increase its selling price.
Personally, I never really did understand why "consigner
confidentiality" was such a big deal in the movie poster field,
but Bruce probably has a viable theory that ties in with the push
'em ups concept... :)
-- JR
Steven F. Poole wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:[email protected]>Steven F. Poole
To: <mailto:[email protected]>Richard Halegua Comic Art & Movie Posters
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Provenance...............
Actually, I don't own a SON OF DRACULA, just using that as
an illustration........in my case its another card from another
Universal film and Heritage is not the auction house/dealer in my case.
So, if provenance would not / cannot be disclosed, a dealer
or auction house seems to be putting themselves in the position
of taking in back in a No Questions Asked policy if I happen to
suspect it. I would not be able to go any further back than
where I got it from and they would have to honor my feeling about it?
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