two or three dealers could argue as to the MINTY whites origin unless
there was Bonifide evidence as to where they wer printed..
I think now though, the minty whites have been accepted as fakes.
And what the main source is or was.
Though that didn't prevent people on here saying that source was ok
person, as long as you're careful.
Why anyone would take that attitude about that particular source of
fakes, and a totally different attitude to (alleged dealer in fakes)
Haggard is beyond me.
Also recall the minty whites importance being undermined in comparison
to the Universal because of the financial scale of the fraud.
Universal $2 million estimate, and counting, minty whites, spread
thinner but wider.
Is the money traded for minty whites absolutely known to significantly
smaller than the Universals?
I doubt it is known, but if so, so what?
Sorry, but all that smacks of hypocrisy.
On 12 Oct 2009, at 18:37, Tom Martin wrote:
steven _ your posts are interesteing however... hers the important
thing to understand.......
the entire Movie poster buiness is based on a simple fact... It was
never cleared in past to be sold, leased or given away as indicated
on bottom of most posters.. so in effect its all stolen materials
that were to be returned
to the studios and thetre poster depots....
that said.... most people would not disclose the oriigin of where
they received it as it might be a studio employee or excecutive that
slipped it out the backdoor of the office...
Otherwise how did any get out? Ive bought from people that
worked in theatres and most would not want there names told as it
could jeprodise there jobs.... I even bought from people in chains
that handle the advertising.....
However in vinatge material even if I bought from the cousin of the
theatre owner what does that have to do with the origin of the
poster itself?? even people in the biz received bootlegs.... and
all you have stated is that
someone made you feel comfortable withe the buy because they verbal
told you they attested its source- Correct?
so In the final chapter .. two or three dealers could argue as to
the MINTY whites origin unless there was Bonifide evidence as to
where they wer printed.. and where the originals with printer
afadavits and
witnesses and bonifide proof... Otherwise its he said/she said and
speculation as to the source.
Unless you were there in 1931 to see it printed and had documents
the only way to athenticate posters
would be to have a special scientific test done.... Otherwise the
authenticating will come from Professioanl Poster dealers OPINIONs
as to its originality based on experiance, and knowledge over years.
In about every area professionals have been fooled like currency and
any sector , as forgers are keen observers and can copy almost
anything because of new technology. and old school treatments.
In the case of Movie posters the probvenance has been distrupted by
many people who dont wish disclosure most times or also because no
one ever thought a 1.00 piece of throw away advertising would be
worth 200K
because when they do.. eeryone hordes the items as " Investmensts"
as is seen with the glut of collectables
that consumers feated on like cababge patch, beanie babies , and
even comics and posters,,, playing on greed
of people that wanted to Invest in something long term with modest
cash outlay...
Ive always maintained... Buy it for the value of seeing incredible
art,, enjoy it.. dont buy for condition,, buy
for the experiance of the artist, author, or medium of art..... and
then pass it on and allow others to experiance it and see it , hear
it , because life is so damn short.. buy the time you accumulate ,
then you need to store.. and if you leave in a box.. then it might
get pitched by someone like a relative that sees no value anyway.,
and as far as investments.. sure you can make lots of money if you
bough back in pre- 80s and even now
there are probably deals,,, however until the hobby aggree on
standards and a authority to monitor whats
being sold and can respect that judgement ,, Its all wild west and
everything and anything gos until they get popped. Thankfully there
are some honest people out there to help keep things honest,
as for the auction house that told you it was a legitaimate card , I
would think you could read terms of the sale and see if they offer
money back warranty if found to be bogus goods.. If so if you have
several dealers of old paper concur its not real then ask them to
give you a letter offering refund if found bogus down the road and
perhaps that would help if you ever need to sell the item. There may
also be legal remidies I suggest you seek legal council if you
suspect you need more relief.
However I think people are not logically looking at the entire scope
of the Movie poster hobby clearly.
It was never menat to be a titled industry like cars or items sold
to a group as a collectable.. the NSS numbers where just to organize
release dates and the posters in the NSS system and for thetares
The structure or infrastructure was never in place to do what you
would like done... Its basically word of mouth, and the trail will
stop or get cloudy at many points.. especially on older titles sice
most of the players are dead and theatres goone and industry peopel
dead and gone.... so that leaves dealers like me and others
who are soon to be senile and forget thier names so you better hope
you have a original Bubba!
just hoep fishler Frietag Bruce and Morrie and the others live to
be 129 years old then youll be ok..
Or all hell well break loose and the world will be taken over by the
minty white guys...
best, Tom
old poster dealer that is getting old. and cranky
Steven F. Poole wrote:
Bruce and all-
When its all said and done, I guess the bottom line of the
whole auction format does not allow for ME the buyer to know who
YOU the consignor are (unless explicitely stated in the auction
description who the consignor is).
Here was my scenaro in a nutshell: I made a purchase of a
Universal lobby card in a major auction at about a high bid of
$1000 last spring ('09). I know that that dollar amount in value
is peanuts compared to some other Universal pieces but after the
fake Universal scandal broke, I got a little bit concerned about
the card I had from the auction from just a few months ago and
called the auction house to ask where it came from. I was simply
told it was from a "reputable collector" and nothing more would be
revealed by the auction house rep. in the conversation. So, I have
no knowledge of where this card came from except the auction house
sold it to me. For those who might be proactive in the fallout of
this whole fake issue, this is a real dead end in trying to
maintain as certain as humanly possible authenticity of an item
purchased.
Another example.....Recently I had a call from an individual
with whom I had been involved in a trade for some material. The
piece that this individual had was a horror piece that they had a
question about concerning authenticity. We went back to the
person that I had received it from and they were able to verify
where they had purchased it from earlier which satisfied my trading
partner who is the current owner of the piece. Total disclosure
and following the links of the chain of ownership helped to calm
the concerns of the person who currently owns the piece.
I guess that is what I was seeking in my concerns regarding the
item that I had "won" from the auction house.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hershenson
To: Steven F. Poole
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 5:23 AM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Fw: [MOPO] Provenance...............
Steven
You have asked this in kind of a confusing way, but I think I am
getting your point.
1) Even though they won't implicitly admit it (for unfathomable
reasons) it is clear that several leading auctions and dealers sold
these fakes (presumedly unknowing) as originals, and at least one
indirectly states they have refunded the buyers they inadvertantly
duped.
2) They surely have a record of who consigned what, so they know
exactly who consigned each and every fake they have refunded.
3) Therefore, they really absolutely SHOULD contact the buyers of
any pieces that were also consigned by those same individuals, to
alert the buyers that they MAY have purchased a fake, and that they
should have their purchased checked by a talented professional,
especially if they have any doubts themselves.
Could some of the consignors of the fakes have acquired them second
hand or third hand and have only consigned the one fake, and all
other items from that consignor were real? Sure, but until the
fakes consigned by those individuals are identified, extra
precautions must be taken, or this disease will continue to plague
our hobby for years to come, as these so-called "buried" fakes keep
re-surfacing.
I take Steven's point to be that the auctions should be studying
their consignment records and notifiying buyers of items consigned
by those who also consigned fakes, or at least letting them know
that the item came from a consignor who also consigned one or more
known fakes if the purchaser inquires, as Steven did (of course,
they don't have to name the consignor, just reveal the vital info
that they also consigned one or more known fakes).
Do I think the auction houses and dealers who sold fakes will do
this? I don't know, but I do know that this is a great opportunity
for them to step up to the plate and show exactl why they deserve
those hefty 20% buyers premiums all these years, and to take a real
leadership role in removing this awful taint from our hobby.
Bruce
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 3:13 AM, Steven F. Poole <[email protected]>
wrote:
James-
Its not that I would want to go to the consignor to ask for
money back.....what I really would like to know on a questionable
item is the "chain" that it came from. If one of the "alleged
masterminds" of the Universal Horror Scandal was the consignor, I
would think that is cause for alarm. Also, if it came from
someone who is reputable, that would be a reassurance (unless, of
course, the donsignor obtained it from one of the "alleged
masterminds").
Guess there really is no way to be assured on this issue except
having someone you trust examine it. It just seems the auction
houses / dealers have the upper hand in this as they hold the key
to at least begin a provenance check and the buyer does not have
the key to fit that lock.
----- Original Message -----
From: James Richard
To: Steven F. Poole
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Fw: [MOPO] Provenance...............
Steven,
Yes. But even if the seller/auction house did reveal the consigner
or name-provenance of the item you purchased, for practical
purposes your only recourse if you are unhappy with the item is to
return it to the seller/auction house you bought it from and get
your money back from them. The fact that the seller/auction house
said they had the item on consignment from say, Brad Pitt, does not
really entitle you to go to directly to Brad Pitt and ask for your
money back. Brad did not sell the item to you -- the seller/auction
house did. That's the whole point of consigning something to a
seller or auction house.
Sure, if you wanted to pay for it, a lawyer could probably make the
argument that by consigning the item to the seller/auction house
that Brad Pitt was somehow responsible in a vague kind of "implied
warranty" fashion -- some lawyers will argue any position no matter
how tenuous -- but I wouldn't count on winning that one in court.
Selling individual used collectible items "as is" (which is
essentially what we doing here) is not the same thing as the Ford
Motor Company manufacturing millions of automobiles and selling
them through a network on independent franchised dealerships.
In lieu of some kind of convincing third-party authentication
opinion certificate, I think you will start seeing sellers and
auction houses putting aside this traditional "confidentiality"
business and clearly stating provenances and consigners on the
higher-priced items. In other fields of collecting, such as comic
books, if an item is from a well-known collector's horde, that
provenance is almost always mentioned by the seller -- it adds
cachet to the item and will often significantly increase its
selling price.
Personally, I never really did understand why "consigner
confidentiality" was such a big deal in the movie poster field, but
Bruce probably has a viable theory that ties in with the push 'em
ups concept... :)
-- JR
Steven F. Poole wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Steven F. Poole
To: Richard Halegua Comic Art & Movie Posters
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Provenance...............
Actually, I don't own a SON OF DRACULA, just using that as an
illustration........in my case its another card from another
Universal film and Heritage is not the auction house/dealer in my
case.
So, if provenance would not / cannot be disclosed, a dealer or
auction house seems to be putting themselves in the position of
taking in back in a No Questions Asked policy if I happen to
suspect it. I would not be able to go any further back than where
I got it from and they would have to honor my feeling about it?
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