Bruce and all-
When its all said and done, I guess the bottom line of the whole auction
format does not allow for ME the buyer to know who YOU the consignor are
(unless explicitely stated in the auction description who the consignor is).
Here was my scenaro in a nutshell: I made a purchase of a Universal
lobby card in a major auction at about a high bid of $1000 last spring ('09).
I know that that dollar amount in value is peanuts compared to some other
Universal pieces but after the fake Universal scandal broke, I got a little bit
concerned about the card I had from the auction from just a few months ago and
called the auction house to ask where it came from. I was simply told it was
from a "reputable collector" and nothing more would be revealed by the auction
house rep. in the conversation. So, I have no knowledge of where this card
came from except the auction house sold it to me. For those who might be
proactive in the fallout of this whole fake issue, this is a real dead end in
trying to maintain as certain as humanly possible authenticity of an item
purchased.
Another example.....Recently I had a call from an individual with whom I had
been involved in a trade for some material. The piece that this individual
had was a horror piece that they had a question about concerning authenticity.
We went back to the person that I had received it from and they were able to
verify where they had purchased it from earlier which satisfied my trading
partner who is the current owner of the piece. Total disclosure and
following the links of the chain of ownership helped to calm the concerns of
the person who currently owns the piece.
I guess that is what I was seeking in my concerns regarding the item that I had
"won" from the auction house.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hershenson
To: Steven F. Poole
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 5:23 AM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Fw: [MOPO] Provenance...............
Steven
You have asked this in kind of a confusing way, but I think I am getting your
point.
1) Even though they won't implicitly admit it (for unfathomable reasons) it
is clear that several leading auctions and dealers sold these fakes (presumedly
unknowing) as originals, and at least one indirectly states they have refunded
the buyers they inadvertantly duped.
2) They surely have a record of who consigned what, so they know exactly who
consigned each and every fake they have refunded.
3) Therefore, they really absolutely SHOULD contact the buyers of any pieces
that were also consigned by those same individuals, to alert the buyers that
they MAY have purchased a fake, and that they should have their purchased
checked by a talented professional, especially if they have any doubts
themselves.
Could some of the consignors of the fakes have acquired them second hand or
third hand and have only consigned the one fake, and all other items from that
consignor were real? Sure, but until the fakes consigned by those individuals
are identified, extra precautions must be taken, or this disease will continue
to plague our hobby for years to come, as these so-called "buried" fakes keep
re-surfacing.
I take Steven's point to be that the auctions should be studying their
consignment records and notifiying buyers of items consigned by those who also
consigned fakes, or at least letting them know that the item came from a
consignor who also consigned one or more known fakes if the purchaser inquires,
as Steven did (of course, they don't have to name the consignor, just reveal
the vital info that they also consigned one or more known fakes).
Do I think the auction houses and dealers who sold fakes will do this? I
don't know, but I do know that this is a great opportunity for them to step up
to the plate and show exactl why they deserve those hefty 20% buyers premiums
all these years, and to take a real leadership role in removing this awful
taint from our hobby.
Bruce
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 3:13 AM, Steven F. Poole <[email protected]> wrote:
James-
Its not that I would want to go to the consignor to ask for money
back.....what I really would like to know on a questionable item is the "chain"
that it came from. If one of the "alleged masterminds" of the Universal
Horror Scandal was the consignor, I would think that is cause for alarm.
Also, if it came from someone who is reputable, that would be a reassurance
(unless, of course, the donsignor obtained it from one of the "alleged
masterminds").
Guess there really is no way to be assured on this issue except having
someone you trust examine it. It just seems the auction houses / dealers
have the upper hand in this as they hold the key to at least begin a provenance
check and the buyer does not have the key to fit that lock.
----- Original Message -----
From: James Richard
To: Steven F. Poole
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Fw: [MOPO] Provenance...............
Steven,
Yes. But even if the seller/auction house did reveal the consigner or
name-provenance of the item you purchased, for practical purposes your only
recourse if you are unhappy with the item is to return it to the seller/auction
house you bought it from and get your money back from them. The fact that the
seller/auction house said they had the item on consignment from say, Brad Pitt,
does not really entitle you to go to directly to Brad Pitt and ask for your
money back. Brad did not sell the item to you -- the seller/auction house did.
That's the whole point of consigning something to a seller or auction house.
Sure, if you wanted to pay for it, a lawyer could probably make the
argument that by consigning the item to the seller/auction house that Brad Pitt
was somehow responsible in a vague kind of "implied warranty" fashion -- some
lawyers will argue any position no matter how tenuous -- but I wouldn't count
on winning that one in court. Selling individual used collectible items "as is"
(which is essentially what we doing here) is not the same thing as the Ford
Motor Company manufacturing millions of automobiles and selling them through a
network on independent franchised dealerships.
In lieu of some kind of convincing third-party authentication opinion
certificate, I think you will start seeing sellers and auction houses putting
aside this traditional "confidentiality" business and clearly stating
provenances and consigners on the higher-priced items. In other fields of
collecting, such as comic books, if an item is from a well-known collector's
horde, that provenance is almost always mentioned by the seller -- it adds
cachet to the item and will often significantly increase its selling price.
Personally, I never really did understand why "consigner confidentiality"
was such a big deal in the movie poster field, but Bruce probably has a viable
theory that ties in with the push 'em ups concept... :)
-- JR
Steven F. Poole wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Steven F. Poole
To: Richard Halegua Comic Art & Movie Posters
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Provenance...............
Actually, I don't own a SON OF DRACULA, just using that as an
illustration........in my case its another card from another Universal film and
Heritage is not the auction house/dealer in my case.
So, if provenance would not / cannot be disclosed, a dealer or
auction house seems to be putting themselves in the position of taking in back
in a No Questions Asked policy if I happen to suspect it. I would not be able
to go any further back than where I got it from and they would have to honor my
feeling about it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.10/2429 - Release Date:
10/11/09 18:34:00
Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com
___________________________________________________________________
How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List
Send a message addressed to: [email protected]
In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L
The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.10/2429 - Release Date: 10/11/09
18:34:00
Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com
___________________________________________________________________
How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List
Send a message addressed to: [email protected]
In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L
The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
