Think we can all forgive a bit of self aggrandisement. But Bill Gold went further than that, claiming credit for Clockwork Orange, when the work (design/illustration/type) was done by Phillip Castle working directly to Kubrick in the UK. (Kubrick for the first time having complete control over the marketing, essentially taking the role of creative director).
Just some extremely minor/unnecessary changes were made at Gold's studio to the type. Nothing worse than a credit thief in my book. But as despicable as that behaviour is, I wouldn't completely write off his contribution to the work he was responsible for in favour of the illustrators he hired . In this context I do see "Illustrator" as a far more accurate term than "artist", though it is perhaps less flattering. These are rarely artists left to their own devices with complete creative freedom, they're illustrating other people's concepts, an element of the design. (Though of course illustrators can also be responsible for the design/art direction.) To me ideas, invariably (depending on the quality of them) are more important than whoever's chosen to illustrate them, albeit an extremely talented commercial artist. Or the other really talented commercial artist who gets the job if the first one isn't available or screwed it up. I don't think Gold's campaign for Bullitt, for example, is too shoddy, but to my eye there's no artist (illustrator) involved, it's photomontage. Write off photomontage, and you write off a lot that is widely accepted as "Art", (Constructivism, Dada, Pop Art). No artist made that a decent campaign. Day off, at home painting a vase of flowers. Not forgetting that also essential to the "Art" when it comes to movie posters, along with the concept, is the type, whether executed by the Lettering Artist, typesetter, or even the illustrator. The Art of it, with posters (movie or other) is the whole package. I'd class the likes of McKnight Kauffer, Cassandre and Abram Games as artists, great poster artists, but they were responsible for all of it, and to a not too shabby standard. Sent from my iPad On 10 Nov 2013, at 23:48, Richard Halegua Posters + Comic Art <[email protected]> wrote: > David > don't get me wrong, I wasn't downing your site. I'm going back to read each > when I have time & see if I can add any or correct any data for you > > on Bill Gold, I have read material he is quoted in etc and I think he's very > much into self aggrandizement. > the posters don't work because he was the art director, they work because the > people working for him are great artists and seems to think these guys were > his "second stringers" > > an artist is the person who does the art. I used to issue print catalogs. I > did about 20 of them and collectors seek out these catalogs for their > informational data & for pictures of the great art I have sold. When I would > do them, I would contract an artist to do an illustration for the cover. I > always gave them an idea of what I wanted it to look like as a basic outline. > I wouldn't consider that I was th artist in any fashion, even though when I > decide to sit down and do something myself, I'm not too, though I do have > some art training and that certainly helps. > > in my world, you're only an artist when you put pen to paper or brush to > canvas > > by the way, we have at least one former art director on this forum (unless he > has unsubbed). Richard Del Belso served for 20 years as a poster art director > & advertising man for either WB or MGM or one of the biggies, I don't recall > which.. I keep meaning to call him and say hello.. Maybe now is the time. But > I very much doubt he would call Bill Gold the artist on any of those posters > > Rich > > > At 03:15 PM 11/10/2013, you wrote: >> Oh well, I guess future generations when doing their thesis on the subject >> will come across this thread and perhaps wonder if this is when the War of >> Semantics broke out between Art Dealers and Movie Poster Collectors. >> >> I look forward to seeing other people doing their own websites with their >> own 'slant' on the art of movie poster artist/designer >> >> ;) >> >> David >> >> Richard Halegua Posters + Comic Art did previously state on 11/11/2013 8:01 >> AM: >>> David, I'm not denying Gold's contribution, just his description as "the >>> artist" >>> >>> I'm sure that quite a few of the posters he's involved with in have little >>> input from him and could be as little as assigning the work and placing the >>> text. For instance, you can have no doubt that anything Gold might have >>> said to Frazetta about doing the painting to the Gauntlet is restricted to >>> "do you wanna do a poster for Clint" as Fritz wouldn't even bother using >>> someone else's sketch layout as an image source, so Gold's total input on >>> such an item is very small and if you consider that he probably had >>> typesetters in his offices - he may not even have placed text, making his >>> entire contribution assigning the work. He would be in a similar situation >>> with Bob Peak, Birney Lettick, Richard Amsel and Roger Kastel. Gold's >>> contribution to Jaws may be as little as "Hey Roger, we need an image of a >>> shark attacking a girl" and likely has similar small contributions to the >>> final art of others used on these posters. >>> >>> so art dealers like myself don't talk about Gold in the same manner that >>> poster collectors do. >>> There's a pretty good chance I'm the only guy on this list that has sold >>> paintings or other illustrations by Robert McGinnis, Frank Frazetta and Bob >>> Peak (among scores of others or course as I have sold many 1000's of pieces >>> of art) and in the art world, Bill Gold is nobody. In the poster world his >>> reputation is totally different - as it should be - but when I finally get >>> around to building a website devoted to poster artists, or subsection to >>> MoviePosterBid possibly, Bill Gold will be categorized as a Poster Designer >>> which is his proper title in my book. >>> >>> note: I do not have a copy of the Bill Gold book, largely because I have as >>> much interest in paying almost a thousand bucks for it as I do burning my >>> Blue Dahlia one sheet. When it finally comes out as a $30 paperback, I'll >>> jump at one. so because I don't have that book, I don't have any list of >>> posters where Bill Gold actually did do the art. Did he just add the gun to >>> Casablanca? Or did he actually do the painting? If he did the painting, he >>> would certainly deserve credit as an artist for that piece (which would >>> change his career credit to Artist/Designer) >>> >>> Rich >>> >>> At 12:37 PM 11/10/2013, David wrote: >>>> Rich >>>> >>>> I have no argument with that fact he did not actually draw every piece but >>>> at some point one must also accept that the art director or the company >>>> owner (or whatever the position) is the person responsible for the >>>> production of that piece and the 'artist' is just a cog in the wheel - the >>>> buck has to stop somewhere. >>>> >>>> Saatchi & Saatchi produce adverts for companies, no one really believes >>>> Lord Saatchi or his brother Charles or even the current CEO Kevin Robert >>>> actually came/come up with all the adverts, but if the creative people >>>> behind those ads leave that company they are welcome to lay claim that >>>> they worked on, designed, conceptualised etc the advert. >>>> >>>> Movie Poster art is rarely signed and although maybe collected for its >>>> 'art' is in fact a commercial piece of work and I think it is fair to say >>>> it falls under a similar ruling. >>>> >>>> As I said previously, I have always welcomed emails/contact from more >>>> knowledgeable collectors to set me on the path to enlightenment with >>>> corrected information. My articles are mostly my own amateur research and >>>> are also organic pieces, none are set in stone. As has been alluded there >>>> is limited information out there on the subject and I am definitely not >>>> saying they are the definitive guide so certainly happy if they are >>>> developed, expanded and added to for future collectors to read and >>>> hopefully enjoy...sharing is caring. ;) >>>> >>>> cheers >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> Richard Halegua Posters + Comic Art did previously state on 11/11/2013 >>>> 7:13 AM: >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> I just looked at the link and I have some critique about Bill Gold >>>>> >>>>> while Gold did do art early in his career, for the most part he was the >>>>> head of an advertising agency and didn't create all that much "art". >>>>> He is more properly described as an art director and poster designer and >>>>> the actual art on the vast majority of the posters in his resume were >>>>> done by other artists including such greats as Bob Peak and Roger Kastel. >>>>> So while Gold certasinly deserves a reputation as being involved in the >>>>> creation of many great posters, it is my opinion that identifying Gold as >>>>> the artist is misleading, much the same as indicating that the World >>>>> Without End poster is by Reynold Brown, when the main body of the poster >>>>> is done by Albert Kallis >>>>> >>>>> going farther afield, if you were to talk to dealers of illustration art >>>>> (like myself) about illustrators and poster artists, Bill Gold doesn't >>>>> even register on the radar when talking about the posters in his resume >>>>> >>>>> Rich >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At 10:37 AM 11/10/2013, David wrote: >>>>>> There is a little bit on a few artists and their work here: >>>>>> http://www.vintagemovieposters.com.au/the-movie-poster-artists >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ari Kahan did previously state on 11/11/2013 3:47 AM: >>>>>>> While there are plenty of discussion groups for, and dealers in, movie >>>>>>> posters, I've been able to find almost nothing in the way of resources >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> those interested in obtaining, collecting and discussing the original >>>>>>> poster >>>>>>> art - that is, the handmade, one of a kind paintings by Struzan, Alvin, >>>>>>> Corben, Davis, Bass, Amsel, etc., which are typically combined with >>>>>>> typography and other elements to become the poster. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There's a terrific website at http://www.meansheets.com that actually >>>>>>> pays >>>>>>> attention to who created the art for the posters; there's >>>>>>> http://www.artinsights.com, which deals in some original John Alvin >>>>>>> work, >>>>>>> but I've found little else. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it hiding? Does it not exist? Or am I just the world's worst >>>>>>> searcher? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for any pointers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com >>>>>>> ___________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Send a message addressed to: [email protected] >>>>>>> In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com >>>>>> ___________________________________________________________________ >>>>>> How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List >>>>>> >>>>>> Send a message addressed to: [email protected] >>>>>> In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L >>>>>> >>>>>> The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com > ___________________________________________________________________ > How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List > Send a message addressed to: > [email protected] > In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L > The author of this message is solely > responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
