Quoting Arlo Bensinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > But his "bread" still needs to be of high quality, right? People > wouldn't buy it if it wasn't "good"? Sadly, the facts don't jive with > this myth either, as Pirsig had the foresight to see back in ZMM. Are > we fed "quality" by the "vendors of style"? The overwhelming evidence > says "yes". Years and years and years of marketing and advertising > research, journals and publications reveal time and time again that > people are simply more concerned with "style" and social image than > with quality-of-product. This is simply indisputable, even if it is a > sad commentary on modern life.
Indisputable my foot. People by the millions switched from American to foreign cars because of quality-of-product, so much so that several American auto makers went out of business. It would be nice if Arlo got his facts straight once in awhile instead of loading this site with his looney left- wing propaganda. > [Platt] > Nothing compared to what governments have done to damage people. > > [Arlo] > Governments have also given millions stable, conducive, productive > and Quality social patterns in which they thrive. This ad nauseum > rehash of Raygun's "government is the problem" is, well, nauseating. As usual, the looney left ignores the millions deliberately slaughtered by governments in human history, especially in the 20th century. Arlo would do well to visit the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. > But that's another issue. At point here is the idea that "government > got in and messed up a great free market". Government, if you read > any history, did not just "decide" to interfere with the "glorious > free market" of the late 1890s. Labor laws, regulations, workplace > safety, minimum wage, fair termination, environmental restrictions > were all mandates _of the people_. It was grass roots, local Joes and > Janes that demanded these things because they saw firsthand the > tyranny of a wholly unregulated market. Again, compared to the tyranny of governments, the free market is a fountain of beneficence. > [Marsha] > Free markets are like unicorns, they don't exist. > > [Arlo] > Well said. To bring Stella's point back, "The definitions of a free > market in many books today (there isn't one Definition, but it > differs slightly from author to author) still has the same base as > Smith's free market, but when scrutinizing the definition, it's > interesting to see on how many points the "market" today veers off > from the definition and how the lack of closeness in business > relationships makes it very hard to maintain the "well informed-ness" > and "accessibility" to the market. We have 1) definitions of a free market, > then we have 2) the live thing we call the free market, and then 3) > there are several economic theories and practices, one of which is > called Capitalism." The free market doesn't exist? That must be why Pirsig extolled it: "The Metaphysics of Quality provides the vocabulary. A free market is a Dynamic institution. What people buy and what people sell, in other words what people value, can never be contained by any intellectual formula. 17What makes the marketplace work is Dynamic Quality. The market is always changing and the direction of that change can never be predetermined." (Lila, 17) > [Platt] > I prefer consumerism as a force rather than government as a force. Don't you? > > [Arlo] > This is just another ridiculous dichotomy. The reality, to use > Marsha's paint brush buying which "proves your point", is that Marsha > is likely happy both that she has her paintbrushes, and that they > were produced by fair labor practices (as opposed to say, sweatshops) > and by companies compliant with socially-mandated environmental and > labor -related practices. Which proves my point. In a free market, Marsha can buy her brushes wherever she likes. But, liberals are not great defenders of freedom as the surrender party in Congress illustrates. > As always, rather than relying on inane, pragamatically-useless > dichotomies, the reality is in the workable balance inbetween. Here's what Pirsig said about Arlo's precious pragmatism: "But the Metaphysics of Quality states that practicality is a social pattern of good. It is immoral for truth to be subordinated to social values since that is a lower form of evolution devouring a higher one." (Lila, 29) Now will come the usual onslaught of personal insults and character attacks that characterize liberal fringe kooks. One need only visit left-wing web sites to see the evidence of argument by smear raised to the level of an an art form. But, I'm game. Tit-for-tat is the way of the world so neo-Darwinists inform us. Platt ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
