Ron,
Do you think Ham has a different philosophy?
Different from what is called the moq?
SA
--- Ron Kulp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Marsha,
> that's cool, I think Ham has some good points, I
> feel the difficulty in
> understanding
> each other makes communication stressful. If I can
> smooth things out and
> focus on stuck points
> and discern the truer aspects of the conflict of
> ideas perhaps we can
> resolve them or
> perhaps not but at the very least we can pinpoint
> what they are with
> more clarity.
> -Ron
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of MarshaV
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:11 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [MD] "100% confident"
>
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> Sorry I haven't responded earlier, but I was not at
> all understanding
> your post. I'll try for a better understanding as
> thread continues
> without me.
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
> At 08:37 AM 10/10/2007, you wrote:
> >[Ron]
> > >
> > > Ham, I believe, is not interpolating into the
> objective/static as
> > > much
> >
> > > when he contends that subjective value sense is
> the only thing by
> > > which we can know anything. The fact being that
> individual minds
> > > perceiving a universal continuity establishes an
> absolute source of
> > > perceptual reality while still maintaining
> individual perception of
> > > this shared phenomena.
> >[Ham]
> >Why are you addressing me in the third person, Ron?
> >
> >[Ron]
> >I'm trying to bridge the gap in understanding
> between your concepts and
>
> >Pirsigs.
> >I was aiming mostly at Marsha in explaination but
> also wanted you to
> >comment on my understanding of Essentialsim. How am
> I doing so far?
> >[Ham]
> >Your use of "static" here confuses me, since I
> don't regard
> >subject/object relations as static, and I don't
> comprehend the meaning
> >of "interpolating into" them. I've never said that
> "subjective value
> >is the only thing by which we can know anything."
> However, I do
> >believe that value sensibility is the core self,
> and that all
> >experience is derived from it. But your last
> sentence has me totally
> >baffled. You seem to be asserting that "individual
> minds...establish
> >an absolute source," if I analyze it correctly. I
> trust that you mean
> >establishes the CONCEPT of an absolute source.
> Individual perception
> >doesn't create the source; it creates the
> experience of phenomena.
> >
> >[Ron]
> >That's what I meant, I was getting alittle carried
> away by concepts and
>
> >not focusing on clear description in writing.I term
> static in the MOQ
> >sense of the word as encompassing subject/object
> relations as to
> >provide a frame of understanding for MOQer's.
> >
> > > Ham sees the ultimate value, the value of the
> individual with this
> > > source of perceived reality. This relationship
> is what is important
> > > not so much the positing of a universal concept
> of how objective/
> > > static reality works empirically.
> >[Ham]
> >"Ultimate value" is the relation of the negate
> (individual self) to the
>
> >source (Essence). This value is not directly
> experienced but only
> >sensed, pre-intellectually. The physiological
> organism breaks value
> >down into differentiated sensations from which the
> intellect constructs
>
> >empirical reality (things and events that appear in
> space/time).
> >[Ron]
> >Thank you for cleaning up my meaning.
> >
> > > Ham is more of a humanist where Pirsig is more
> of an empiricist.
> >[Ham]
> >That's your characterization, Ron. I'm not sure
> what a humanist is.
> >(I hope it doesn't imply humanitarian!) Webster's
> Collegiate defines
> >Humanism as "devotion to the humanities:
> >literary culture." I would think that is more
> idiosyncratic of a
> >novelist and man of letters like Pirsig than a
> non-academic like
> myself.
> >As an anthropocentrist, I believe that the human
> individual is the free
>
> >agent of the universe. So perhaps "individualist"
> would be a more
> >appropriate term.
> >
> >[Ron]
> >Perhaps it would, I was trying to convey that you
> seem (to me) to focus
>
> >on relationships in regard to the individual rather
> than an empirical
> >understanding as a whole. Your view IMO takes a
> more personal approach.
> >[Ham]
> >Thanks, Ron. And kindly explain what you meant by
> the statement
> >"...individual minds perceiving a universal
> continuity establishes an
> >absolute source of perceptual reality."
> >[Ron]
> >Well I meant that the evidence for source lies in
> the continuity of
> >percieved objects. That object may mean and appear
> differently to
> >different individuals but the basic objective
> descriptive reference is
> >the same.
> >ie. a blue ball. 20 out of 20 individuals will all
> recognize the object
>
> >as being blue, round, and perhaps a ball. these 20
> people may differ on
>
> >hue and shade of the ball or size or whether or not
> they like the color
>
> >blue or the shape or meaning ect. But you are
> certainly correct in
> >pointing out that source is a concept.
> >
> >I'm trying to bring both concepts together,
> Essentialsim and MOQ in an
> >effort to enrich understanding of both and perhaps
> break new ground.
> >
> >Essentially yours,
> >Ron
> >
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