[Ron] > > Ham, I believe, is not interpolating into the objective/static as much
> when he contends that subjective value sense is the only thing by > which we can know anything. The fact being that individual minds > perceiving a universal continuity establishes an absolute source of > perceptual reality while still maintaining individual perception of > this shared phenomena. [Ham] Why are you addressing me in the third person, Ron? [Ron] I'm trying to bridge the gap in understanding between your concepts and Pirsigs. I was aiming mostly at Marsha in explaination but also wanted you to comment on my understanding of Essentialsim. How am I doing so far? [Ham] Your use of "static" here confuses me, since I don't regard subject/object relations as static, and I don't comprehend the meaning of "interpolating into" them. I've never said that "subjective value is the only thing by which we can know anything." However, I do believe that value sensibility is the core self, and that all experience is derived from it. But your last sentence has me totally baffled. You seem to be asserting that "individual minds...establish an absolute source," if I analyze it correctly. I trust that you mean establishes the CONCEPT of an absolute source. Individual perception doesn't create the source; it creates the experience of phenomena. [Ron] That's what I meant, I was getting alittle carried away by concepts and not focusing on clear description in writing.I term static in the MOQ sense of the word as encompassing subject/object relations as to provide a frame of understanding for MOQer's. > Ham sees the ultimate value, the value of the individual with this > source of perceived reality. This relationship is what is important > not so much the positing of a universal concept of how objective/ > static reality works empirically. [Ham] "Ultimate value" is the relation of the negate (individual self) to the source (Essence). This value is not directly experienced but only sensed, pre-intellectually. The physiological organism breaks value down into differentiated sensations from which the intellect constructs empirical reality (things and events that appear in space/time). [Ron] Thank you for cleaning up my meaning. > Ham is more of a humanist where Pirsig is more of an empiricist. [Ham] That's your characterization, Ron. I'm not sure what a humanist is. (I hope it doesn't imply humanitarian!) Webster's Collegiate defines Humanism as "devotion to the humanities: literary culture." I would think that is more idiosyncratic of a novelist and man of letters like Pirsig than a non-academic like myself. As an anthropocentrist, I believe that the human individual is the free agent of the universe. So perhaps "individualist" would be a more appropriate term. [Ron] Perhaps it would, I was trying to convey that you seem (to me) to focus on relationships in regard to the individual rather than an empirical understanding as a whole. Your view IMO takes a more personal approach. [Ham] Thanks, Ron. And kindly explain what you meant by the statement "...individual minds perceiving a universal continuity establishes an absolute source of perceptual reality." [Ron] Well I meant that the evidence for source lies in the continuity of percieved objects. That object may mean and appear differently to different individuals but the basic objective descriptive reference is the same. ie. a blue ball. 20 out of 20 individuals will all recognize the object as being blue, round, and perhaps a ball. these 20 people may differ on hue and shade of the ball or size or whether or not they like the color blue or the shape or meaning ect. But you are certainly correct in pointing out that source is a concept. I'm trying to bring both concepts together, Essentialsim and MOQ in an effort to enrich understanding of both and perhaps break new ground. Essentially yours, Ron Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
