Hi DMB, inserted .. On 10/11/07, david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ian said to dmb: > And you continue to debate and contrast pure and impure forms of experience > with the help of James and Dewey (and Pirsig). I probably sounded dismissive > earlier when I suggested I couldn't really see what was so "radical" about > radical empricism, but I guess I'm saying what was radical when James > envisaged it doesn't seem so radical in a post-Pirsig light. > > dmb says: > It seems you're taking "radical" to mean something like "way outside the > mainstream" but radical empiricism is a feature of mainstream pragmatism. It > is radical in the sense of going to the roots of experience, excluding no > experience, adding nothing to experience and in equating reality with > experience. In that sense, their empiricism is as radical as it gets. This > differs from traditional empiricism, which says experience is how we can know > the world. Radical empiricism says experience IS the world.
[IG] Agreed. In that sentence I used "radical" that way - deliberately, rhetorically, with scare quotes - but I have of course attempted to understand the Jamesian idea. I think I understand it the way you summarise it OK. But saying experience IS the world, doesn't solve the problem of the different kinds of experience pure / impure / real / illusory, etc (as you know). Hence my suggestion of "no big deal" from a Pisrigian perspective. > > Ian said: > Radical empricism or not, this is ultimately a pragmatism where, as you quote > Dewey saying, the distictions may be moot, and the consequences that follow > are what really matter. Consequences rely on communication - interactions > and/or language. > > dmb says: > The distinctions still matter. I think it would be quite insane and > impossible to do any kind of philosophy, or have a conversation with a human > being, without distinctions and lots of them. The idea is simply that > illusions are no less real than our so-called clear-eyed views. They're both > experiences that really happen. But the differences and distinctions still > obtain and for practical reasons. An actual oasis in the desert will provide > actual water while a mirage can't provide anything but disappointment. The > difference is known by the consequences, which is literally a matter of life > and death in this case. As the pragmatist construes it, true ideas are so > because they successfully guide future actions. Definitions, distinctions and > ideas play a different role and are no longer expected to properly mirror > reality, but there is no less need for them in pragmatism. [IG] Completely agree DMB. Distinctions matter. Definitions have their value, but not in definining reality. (Distinctions, signficant differences are the most fundamental elements of experience we have to play with - I call it information, or quality.) > > Ian said: > ...Pragmatically though, communication of subject/object interactions through > higher level subject/subject language or mental represetation must involve > concepts. That's where the (consequential) action is. > > dmb says: > Huh? [IG] Yeah, OK, drivel, I know. Try it this way. In your consequential (life and death) example, the mirage could only signifiy (falsely) the existence of an oasis, if the mind experiencing the mirage already had the concept of the oasis (not being experienced). You would also need to understand from prior experience and conceptualization of the memory, and a rationalization of your current situation, that an oasis was a matter of life and death. The mind needed these higher level conceptions to make any consequential use of the pure, real (but illusory) experience of the mirage. Ian. > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Boo!Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! > http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
