Kimmel, 1. Abstract reasoning Seems to fit the bill in regard to intellect.
2. SOM is more than an intellectual pattern. 3. Intellectual patterns become social patterns. Gosh Krim, the more I toy with this the more I see intellectual coming BEFORE social. Intellectual was the domain of priests shaman and chiefs Before the age of universities and an educated citizenry! I keep trying to save the hierarchy but it keeps collapsing like A house of cards where intellect is concerned. The lynch pin in understanding seems to be the fact of the intellectual level being made available to the common understanding. Public education was the cause of the intellectual revolution of culture. This is what the Greeks gave us not intellect but Public education. it standardized concepts of SOM it's parent. The new belief system based on analytical thought and the free exchange of ideas transformed the culture into a society of educated equals. Democracy. We the people. Until Rome ceased to be a republic. Am I in a logic trap? -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 12:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MD] subject/object: pragmatism Ron said: Matt, if Quality is reality which equates to experience is reality, Would you agree that pre-intellect would equate to pre-experience At this angle? Matt: No, I don't think so. I'm not sure what angle you're at, but pre-intellect being pre-experience sounds like idealism, the kind Pirsig flirted with in his discourse on ghosts in the beginning of ZMM, because if experience is reality, then before intellect there was nothing. I don't think that's right. One of the things we know about the world, through experience, is that it's been around a lot longer than us, language and a lot of other things. Ron: But it might be a property of any organism which use any symbol system to understand their environment. It would be a matter of complexity. We are going to have to define intellect as more than symbol manipulation. It must be defined in terms of abstract thought application OR SOMETHING. Thoughts? [Krimel] I think you are really close to target here Ron. Pre-intellectual means before intellectual. We know what this is. As I have indicated in the past sensation precedes perception. Sensation is the activation of the sensory nervous system. These nervous impulses are processed by the brain. One of the first steps in the process occurs in the limbic system which is the mid brain or the mammalian brain. This is where experience acquires emotional content. Emotions appear to be universal in mammals. Certainly human emotions are universal in humans both in their physiological content and in their expression. I think calling this pre-intellectual processing "pure" or even special is a bit of a stretch. I also find refreshing, Matt's insistence that the world exists outside our skins. I have wasted way too much time on this point. I am curious though as to how the distinction between subject and object can be dissolved when we experience such a total distinction between our internal states and exterior events. These do impress me as fundamentally different ways of knowing and understanding the world and ourselves. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
