And Ron, bringing in Peter's point (from Bo) ... ... is that the S/O distinction is itself a distinction of intellect over social. What I have inlcuded as "self-aware reasoning" would be seen as more intellectual than just intelligent .... Some intelligent things communicate symbolically, linguistically, without any signs of self-conscious reflective reasoning.
I should work that into my summary. Ian On 11/14/07, ian glendinning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Ron, (and Matt and Bo et al) > > this is the recurring debate ... however general agreement is that the > distinction between social and intellectual is NOT individual vs > collective ... > > Myself (and Matt) have given suggestions on the distinction ... > > Social and intellectual levels are part of a cultural continuum. > Intelligence and language (symbolic, semantic, communication and > metaphor) apply across the whole spectrum. > What passes for intellectual is decided socially. > Across that continuum, at the social end, things are accepted > (relatively unquestioning) on the basis of convention and/or > authority, myth etc, at the intellectual end things are relatively > open to questioning and reasoning .... but its the cultural continuum > as a whole that decides what kind of questioning and reasoning is > "intellectual" and what is "old-hat". > Intellectual is a kind of "snobbery" looking down the nose from the > pinnacle of most-enlightened reasoning. But that perspective is of > course subjective, and open to cultural debate (and evolution) .... as > this forum proves. > > My only reason to continue this particular debate any further is to > bottom out the discussion with Bo as to where MoQ fits in with Level 4 > itself, or whether Bo is right that we should just treat level 4 as a > "static" representation of GOF-Intellect - Traditional Empirical > Logical Subject-Object reasoning .... and anything better than that, > like the MoQ itself is outside the levels .... something more > metaphysical. > > I don't buy that (yet). I'm a pragmatist. For me MoQ is just a (very > good) meme competing for acceptance in the socio-cultural-intellectual > Level 3/4. Part of the evolution of Level 3/4. > > Ian > > On 11/14/07, Ron Kulp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ian: > > Agreed. But the point is it's a creative tool on the social level too > > ... so in itself .... language, symbol manipulation, communication ... > > does not help distinguish what is intellectual. > > > > Ron: > > Perhaps intellectual is the individual manifestation of culture > > Or culture of the individual. > > > > Ian > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
