[Ron] Intellectual is the VALUE of the individual to the social/cultural. The reason why intellectual is so wily to pin down is because It introduces the value of the individual to their culture.
[Ian] .... and "freedom" is a key feature of intellectual. freedom to question and reason (and express that). [Arlo] With all due respect, I think you are both wrong. Firstly, all levels consist of a value relationship between the individual constituents of that level, and the greater collective patterns their activity forms. A human body, for example, is the value relationship between the "individual" cell and the "collective" we call "the body". That is, all patterns exist as some form of relationship between "individuals" and "collectives", it simply depends on the level of your focus and your pragmatic goals at hand as to what "individuals" and what "collectives" that become salient. To paint "social level patterns" are some form of "group think", with intellect as some form of "individual think" paints the picture that before the Greeks no one thought for themselves, and that in modern times we view the world from a singular, objective vantage point. It also paints the idea that "reason" is not constrained nor influenced by "culture". Pirsig mentions the origins of this "myth of independence" in LILA. What emerges when you look it at is not individuals rising above collectives, but individuals-within-collectives in both scenarios responding to value. In the case of our Western world, this became a response to the value of S/O dualism, as I see it, the notion that there is a materiality independent of humans, upon which acts universal and natural forces which can be measure and recorded by objective human subjects. Secondly, "freedom" is not a feature of ANY static level, but always and at once comes from outside the levels, from DQ. As such, each level responds to this DQ given the constraints and affordances of its particular level. A biological pattern is afforded "freedom" only within and constrained by the possibilities allowed within the biological level. "Freedom" when it is witnessed on ANY level is seen as "evolution". When a new football team is formed in Cleveland, it is because of of DQ acting on, and being responded to by social-level patterns. Intellectual patterns are as static as social patterns. That BOTH can change and adapt and evolve is based for both in those patterns responding to DQ, a response that is certainly constrained (and afforded possibility) by the particular level in question. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
