Ron: Krimel, I think what Dmb is saying is that MoQ. 's levels were not Meant to be looked at objectively because When you look at a complex adaptive system this way it is impossible To separate the levels and find their origins for the levels are An emergent process not a static collection. Your Zoom metaphor works well with this type of level structure.
[Krimel] I agree that the levels are not discreet. They are connected together and one emerges from the next. You see this in most taxonomies. They are useful in helping us organize the world. The advantage of the zoom metaphor is that when you use it to look at nature your see self similarity across scale. There all kinds of levels one could look at depending and the scale you choose. If I look at my family I am concerned with dominance hierarchies and divisions of labor. Come tomorrow I will be thinking about who to be sure to line up in front up to make sure there is plenty of pumpkin pie. If I look at families in western culture I am concerned with socioeconomic factors and employment, crime and the effects of media violence on child rearing. If I look at families from a biological perspective I am concerned with strategies to ensure that the young can mature and reproduce. At no level in this scheme is "family" reduced out of existence. it is simply viewed and understood from a different perspective. Each perspective suggests its own set of levels and factors to consider. [Ron] When Pirsig uses the Pre-intellect term it implies the reduction Of intellect which in turn leads to the reduction of social which Will then imply the reduction of biological. It succumbs to the infinite reduction paradox. [Krimel] I guess I see pre-intellectual as intellect in the process of becoming. I have attempted several times to suggest that reduction is emergence in reverse and visa versa. [Ron] This should cause us to view the term pre-intellect In a different light. Technically there is no Pre-intellect in regard to how intellect is defined Within the MoQ levels except when understood in terms As a process of experience. Which Marsha wisely Suggested. [Krimel] I would suggest that the big problem you are having in attempting to define intellect is that it is not one thing. We are essentially information processors. We are pattern recognition engines of a sort. We have multiple sensory mechanisms and they follow multiple neural pathways to different processing regions of the brain. Some of the pathways are millions of years old. Visual processing in reptiles for example follows pathways that connect optical signals directly to the brain stem. In mammals and especially in humans a second pathway has evolved that sends signals through the mid brain into the optical regions of cortex. The older pathway helps us notice change and orient toward it. The second helps us organize and classify information. That is to imbue it with meaning. Part of the meaning is the emotional component added by the limbic system. But that is just visual sensory information. Our sense of touch is processed in separate channels as is taste, smell, motion, heat, balance, and hearing. Intellect is the process of organizing these separate processes into a coherent whole. Storage and accessing stored memory is yet another part of the process of intellect. As I tried to indicate earlier "intelligence" seems to have something to do with this process of classifying and retrieving memory. Humans can enhance this capability by offloading storage into verbal, written or digital form. The major advances in culture have occurred as a result of enhancing these capabilities through technology (writing, printing, and computers). [Ron] Humans are constantly in a process of creating Themselves. When pre-intellect is viewed objectively It takes us to the tips of our senses. [Krimel] Exactly [Ron] When pre-intellect is viewed culturally It takes one down to pre-opinion which Is an aggregate of social and individual Experience [Krimel] Viewed from outside of any individual, pre-intellect can be seen biologically or evolutionarily. Our sensory and processing systems are evolved to promote growth and reproduction. That which improves the odds of this happening is deemed "good". That which threatens the process is "bad". This valence is programmed or shaped through the epochs of time as static qualities that promote self replication. [Ron] When viewed as a complex adaptive system It is immediate experience or pure Because it has not yet joined with Cultural and individual experience To form the complete experience of A human being. [Krimel] Yes and our much misunderstood friend William James nailed it: "In a word, survival can enter into a purely physiological discussion only as an hypothesis made by an onlooker about the future. But the moment you bring a consciousness into the midst, survival ceases to be a mere hypothesis. No longer is it, "if survival is to occur, then so and so must brain and other organs work." It has now become an imperative decree: "Survival shall occur, and therefore organs must so work!" Real ends appear for the first time now upon the world's stage." It is intellect and a sense of self that promotes survival in humans. Intellect and consciousness evolved because they serve this function. Ron: Krimel has taken the focus to memory verses recognition in the past Where there is a distinction in experience from experience to recognizing to Remembering as a process. It would be helpful to explore this area To further this thread. [Krimel] Correct again. Storage and retrieval are separate processes as are organization and classification. The movie Rainman was based in an autistic man named Kim Peek. He is able to retain about 90% of everything he reads and he reads really fast. He has stored and can recall unbelievable amounts of information. But his capacity to integrate and imbue this information with meaning is tragically limited. He does not classify and create the same kinds of meaningful patterns that normal folks do. Sensation, storage, retrieval, classification of patterns, seeing connections between patterns, creation of new patterns and novel systems of classification; these are all separate pieces of a puzzle called intellect. 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