Hi David M.
26 Nov. you wrote:
> > Bo: Anyway, from the MOQ we see that the 4th. level's view of itself
> > (while it was SOM) is that of objectivity rising above subjectivity.
> DM: Yes and hence SOM ends up suppressing subjective static quality
> patterns, so in this sense it does not create a S/O distinction ..(snip)
Fascinating issue this. You seem to understand the "intellect
while it was SOM" point so now you will know that when I say
SOM it's intellect before it became the 4th level. But an even
subtler point is that SOM did not suppress "subjective static
quality patterns" it created "subjective as its necessary contrast
(light/darkness) thus "subjective" is SOM through and through.
At the time when SOM's emerged it was TRUTH rising above a
sea of superstition (the 'superstition' term is surely younger than
the Greeks but you see the point) and the Socrates vs Sophist
issue (in a MOQ retrospect) wasn't the 4th. vs the 3rd. level (the
real social patterns, the myths, were a thing of the past at that
time) but an all-internal 4th. level conflict: The "man the
measure" is clearly the first "subjective" assertion.
> ....it ends up with only the objective and becomes materialistic ...(snip)
As said many times "what would become" SOM went through
many stages first Plato (where "ideas" was the true,objective part
and "appearance" the subjective, via Aristotle where "substance"
is real and "form" the elusive part. After Aristotle the first
primitive physics appeared. In ZAMM Pirsig says that with Ari. we
see the first glimpse of the scientific attitude.
The point is that although SOM created the subjective/objective
schism - and that this is the foundation of science - the subjective
part is just as much SOM and it went through as many stages as
its twin. A somist can be immaterialist and maintain that mind
creates matter yet SOM is his premises.
> .. and unable to make any sense of value/values except as
> epi-phenomenon.
Again no, the idealist has as much trouble understanding the
MOQ as the materialist - even more so. Mystics are the most
idealistic idealists ...no?
Of the two kinds of hostility to metaphysics he considered
the mystics' hostility the more formidable. Mystics will tell
you that once you've opened the door to metaphysics you
can say good bye to any genuine understanding of reality.
Thought is not a path to reality. It sets obstacles in that
path because when you try to use thought to approach
something that is prior to thought your thinking does not
carry you toward that something.
Another thing is that P himself went and undermined the MOQ by
turning idealist himself, but that's another story.
> When Pirsig suggests we replace SOM with MOQ this is to solve the
> problems of SOM he has discussed,
Right, but his method of how the MOQ "encases" the SOM is
faulty and how the paradoxes (platypi) of SOM thereby are
resolved is a "lead balloon".
> some of these problems like the mind/matter distinction seems just as
> problematic to me if you drop the metaphysics. For me a 4th level that
> only contain the S/O distinction retains some of the problems of SOM.
Don't you get it? The intellectual level - in its SOM phase -
CREATED the paradoxes because SOM means the S/O split is
existence's deepest ground. When the MOQ took over the "M"
"ceptre" the former S/O were rejected as existence's ground, the
DQ/SQ split became REALITY? In its new and humble role the
S/O distinction is a mere static value and the paradoxes its
former false role created, goes poof.
> What about the dynamic/static distincition, perfectly intellectual and
> perfectly not captured via the S/O distinction?
Now it's my turn not understanding. "Perfectly intellectual"? Is
that based on the conviction that metaphysics is a mental
construe and thereby "intellectual"? If so you look on the MOQ
from SOM's premises and probably will continue do so.
Please David, study this.
Bo
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