Bo, this should be responded to by someone who knows more about the MoQ than me (or Marsha, for that matter).
On Nov 30, 2007 11:41 AM, MarshaV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Bo, > > No need to get frustrated, I, for one, haven't asked you, or anyone, > to save me. Don't think the others have made that request of you > either. Are you failing to do something? What might that > be? What might that be? What might that be? > > Marsha > > > At 12:04 PM 11/30/2007, you wrote: > >Hi Marsha > > > >On 30 Nov. you wrote: > > > > > It's a beautifully written post! > > > >Thanks, but it obviously didn't make a dent. OK, who is here to > >change views? > > > > > From my heart, or whatever,,, to force the MOQ > > > out of the Intellectual Level and into a level of > > > its own would be to put the unknown ((DQ > > > (Quality) into a system. Within a system it > > > would be at the mercy of every form of butchery. > > > >First about forcing the MOQ out of the intellectual level. It is > >already beyond it - has never been there - if you subscribe to > >logic. The 4th. level is a sub-system of the MOQ (a lesser > >container) and can't contain be whole MOQ (container) > > > > This problem of trying to describe value in terms of > > substance has been the problem of a smaller container > > trying to contain a larger one. Value is not a subspecies > > of substance. Substance is a subspecies of value. When > > you reverse the containment process and define > > substance in terms of value the mystery disappears: > > substance is a "stable pattern of inorganic values." The > > problem then disappears. (digital LILA p 25) > > > >Why did Pirsig so grossly violate his own words by postulating the > >MOQ as an intellectual pattern? My guess is either he just forgot > >or was in SOM-land where intellect is a mental "container" and > >the MOQ a mental construe and not subject to spatial > >requirements. That most of you people haven't moved an iota out > >of SOM is plain, but the creator of the MOQ? The above about > >value not substance ...etc ought to rule that out. I'm just lost. > > > >Next about the MOQ a level unto itself. As tried conveyed many > >times it is not a level inside the static hierarchy, but merely the > >plane where one must be to bring the MOQ to bear. The MOQ > >itself. That this also "contains" the dynamic part goes without > >saying, but I can't see that this violates its dynamism. The MOQ > >says noting about it except that is is dynamic. This keeps it free > >from "butchery" and can't be any "worse" than Pirsig saying that it > >is dynamic. It's not sophistry, but he has already said something > >about it. > > > >Pirsig obviously wanted to convey the "taboo" of the DQ so badly > >that he ended up in "butchering" the MOQ. I remember a diagram > >of the MOQ (concentric rings) where the paper itself was DQ, > >that's OK, but then he added ...but stretches beyond the paper to > >the end of the world. This sounds impressive but is impossible, in > >drawing diagrams the paper is "it all" and when speaking/writing > >language is "it all", to give the impression that one can transcend > >these media is an illusion. The MOQ is the "diagram" and > >postulating DQ beyond it butchers it. OK, RMP could possibly not > >anticipate all possible objections and finer point and you (all) > >should note his final words in the Paul Turner letter words about > >his advice not being a Papal Bull, perhaps just bull ...- > > > >Bo > > > > > > > > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >Archives: > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > -- "The only thing that separates us from the animals is...well, the truth is nothing separates us from the animals." Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
