Krimel said: Saying that an experience is drug induces or a product of brain chemistry does not detract in the least from the experience itself. It may however cause us to be cautious about the cosmic significance we want to attach to such experiences.
dmb says: It does not detract in the least but only causes us to be cautious about assigning significance? What kind of logic is that? I mean, if such reductionist explanations result in the loss of its meaning, how can you say it does not detract from it? That's exactly what it does, of course. It explains it away as a chemically induced hallucination or a product of biological processes and thereby drains the significance out of it for the experiencer. This is not to say that mystical experiences occur in some disembodied way or that there are no correlated biological events. This is a natural event, after all. But to say they are CAUSED by or are the PRODUCTS of the bio-chemical processes is, by definition, materialistic reductionism. And that kind of reductionism is one of the MOQ's central enemies for the way it denies things like morals, values, mysticism. But you know all that. Krimel said: Beyond that I would say this culture does embrace mystical experiences. From speaking in tongues and snake handling to Bud Lite and Raves; from trances induced by cathode rays to jingles that stick in our heads; roller coasters, novels, paintings, hot and spicy and scratch and sniff; we live in a culture that thrives on the manipulation of experience. dmb says: Hate to sound like a snob, but I think philosophical mysticism demands a more precise idea about what is and is not a mystical experience. I don't see how ad jingles or scratch-n-sniff figures into it, for example. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there is only one kind of mystical experience or that there is only one way to evoke them. In fact, I think its better to think of mystical events as a category of experiences. And we all know that different cultures have developed different techniques. Whirling dervishes, silent meditators, drumming, chanting, dancing, and yes, "drugs" too. As I understand it, they go back as far as the record goes. The variety and antiquity is fairly well matched by the ubiquity. Makes it hard to ignore. No, ignoring something that deep and old and pervasive is just plain stupid. Not that you're stupid. I'm just saying that intellectual respectability on the topic does not have to be purchased with reductionistic science. Mysticism as such is a cultural and psycho-spiritual reality, not a physical of biological event. Its point, purpose and meaning cannot be realized through a microscope. That's just a matter of looking in the wrong direction, treating the subject-matter as something other than what it actually is in people's lives. But I did handle a snake on a roller coaster once and THAT was certainly some kind of experience. Shirley MacLaine and Samuel Jackson were there in the seat behind me. She was wearing this weird stole that sorta looked like a snake when it flapped in the wind. Just as we were about to go down the first big hill she took it off and wrapped it around my neck. That's when Sam started screaming profanities. Or maybe it was just a dream. In any case, it changed my life. I became a devout frisbetarian that day. May your soul get stuck on the roof forever, amen. _________________________________________________________________ Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
