[SA previously]
> > Two internet sources depict how Lilith or Lila is
> >understood within the same Indo-European language,
> >yet, a seeming divergence took place somewhere and
> >Sanskrit depicts Lila in a more positive light and
> the 'western' version has Lila in a more negative
> light. Here are the two links as follows:
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila
[Sharath]
> I read them both and just like I suspected before my
> reading, the "Lila"
> > link never really associate or suggest any gender
> for "Lila" and infact is
> > not an actual person.
[SA currently]
Yes, I see what your saying, and before 'Lila'
becomes too literal and the metaphor disappears, I'd
like to point out that 'Lila' in Pirsig's book may not
be the same Lila from the Hindu tradition. The Hindu
tradition may see 'Lila' from Pirsig as the same Lila
of Hindu for the Hindu Lila is everywhere. Is
Pirsig's 'Lila' everywhere? In the book she is a
character, but she seems to be also immortal as
follows Pirsig's Lila chapter one:
"This sleeping Lila whom he had just met tonight
was someone else too. Or not someone else exactly, but
someone less specific, less individual. There is Lila,
this single private person who slept beside him now,
who was born and now lived and tossed in her dreams
and will soon enough die and then there is someone
else - call her lila - who is immortal, who inhabits
Lila for a while and then moves on."
[SA currently continues]
Here is a quote from the 'Lila' link in Hindu
tradition as follows:
"Brahman is full of all perfections. And to say
that Brahman has some purpose in creating the world
will mean that it wants to attain through the process
of creation something which it has not. And that is
impossible. Hence, there can be no purpose of Brahman
in creating the world. The world is a mere spontaneous
creation of Brahman. It is a Lila, or sport, of
Brahman. It is created out of Bliss, by Bliss and for
Bliss. Lila indicates a spontaneous sportive activity
of Brahman as distinguished from a self-conscious
volitional effort. The concept of Lila signifies
freedom as distinguished from necessity."
[SA currently continues]
Lila in Pirsig's book is spontaneous. She
dances, goes with a stranger (Phaedrus), and goes down
river, then roams the streets of New York City. When
Phaedrus tries to ask Lila questions about herself,
then we get this in the book, Chapter 14, as follows:
"A woman's got to be real quiet inside because if
she shows a man anything they'll try to kill it...
'But they all get fooled because there's nothing to
destroy but what's in their own mind. And so they
destroy that and then they hate what's left and they
call what's left, "Lila," and they hate Lila. But Lila
isn't anybody. That's true. You don't believe it, but
it's true.
'Women are very deep,' Lila said. 'But men never see
it. They're too selfish. They always want women to
understand them. And that's all they ever care about.
That's why they always have to try to destroy them.'
'I'm just asking questions,' the Captain said.
'Fuck your questions! I'm whatever your questions turn
me into..."
[SA currently]
What I see in this quote is (1) Lila has a free
spirit, in other words, is free from "...whatever (the
Captain) turn(s) (Lila) into..." - thus freedom, and
(2) Men try to destroy woman and whatever a man is
left with, after a man destroy's his own thoughts is
Lila and "they hate Lila". This seems to be Lillith
who is free and equal, but Adam hated her for this and
tried to destroy who she was, but Lilith wouldn't have
anything of it and so left Adam and the Garden and
from then on the story sees Lilith not as equal with
Adam but wicked.
Lila in Pirsig's book is given a gender (female),
but then Lila is also an immortal lila as quoted
above. Lila is not who anybody thinks she is, thus,
Lila is dynamic. Dynamic quality is nonduality, which
leads my line of thinking into the Hindu Lila. Also,
from the Hindu Lila link as follows:
"The basic cosmogonic motif of an unfolding or
flowering cosmos is expressed here specifically in the
relation of male to female, as well as in terms of
consciousness and intentionality (in the concept of
lila as the divine play of male and female)."
[SA currently continues]
I would say this goes more to the core, maybe, of
where the Hindu viewpoint and the western viewpoint of
Lilith/Lila would diverge. Lila is "the divine play
of male and female" where Lilith and Adam are equal,
but then fight, this equality and fight, are a 'play'
between a female and a male.
[Sharath]
> I had this strong suspicion because I was born into
> > fairly orthodox Hindu Bhramin family and having
> lived 25yrs in a small
> > temple town in India, it is pretty common to hear
> references to Lila/Leela
> > in hindu mythology and no where did I hear
> something like this. At least for
> > me, Lila in the Hindu sense is associated with the
> cosmos and the life force
> > that exists on this planet. I only know of F
> Capra[Tao of Physics] who comes
> > out with a mesh of east-western viewpoint on
> cosmos/Universe and cites
> > examples from both eastern texts and western
> scientific books on quantum
> > physics to reach the same conclusion. In the Lilth
> link the text suggests
> > that Lilith is on par with the Hindu godess Kali.
> Now that makes much more
> > sense to me. I would recommend you read wiki
> pages on Kali and Durga too.
> > They are pretty acuarate and the pictures are
> fascinating.
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durga
[SA currently]
I read the Kali link, and this was brought up on
this forum before by Marsha. Kali does seem to be
more closely associated with Lilith. I wonder about
the maternal Kali who breasts feeds Shiva on the
battlefield. Pirsig's Lila carried this doll around
for some time, and Phaedrus buried the doll. I don't
see a close association between the doll and Shiva.
Yet, dynamic quality devours all, as Kali does, but
this aspect of dq seems to not be contained within the
skin of Pirsig's Lila for I don't remember Pirsig's
Lila devouring or killing off... now that I think of
it, it does seem she kills Phaedrus' thoughts in the
quote I give above, just as Kali takes the souls of
the battlefield dead away, hmmm, I'm thinking outloud
here. Is Kali though, the aspect of Hindu Lila that
'takes away the dead in the night'? Why does Kali and
Shiva marry? Do you know?
[Sharata]
> > Eventhough Wiki has mentioned Pirsig alongside
> Capra and I believe Pirsig
> > is one of those philosophers trying to merge
> eastern mystics with western
> > thought, I feel his "use" of Lila is more western
> or arabic in nature than
> > anything eastern[ from Lila the concept] I've
> known. I don't know why he
> > chose the name Lila. I don't remember the chapter,
> but I definitely remember
> > reading somewhere on the lines that "Lila had
> biological quality" if not
> > anything else..
[SA currently]
I don't remember Pirsig's Lila being "biological
quality". Here is the quote I know about from
Pirsig's Lila chapter as follows:
"Do you personally think Miss Lila M. Blewitt is
a Woman of Quality?'
'Yes.'"
[SA currently continues]
Rigel was asking the question and Phaedrus
answered Rigel, "Yes". Here is it not particular to
the biological level, but to quality itself.
[Sharath]
> which kind of suggests a depiction
> of a prostitute to me.
[SA currently]
Aside from what you may have misquoted, I also
saw Lila as kin to a prostitute when I first read the
book. She was with Rigel before, and then ended up
sleeping with Phaedrus, though, I don't remember if
Lila and Phaedrus were explicitly explained to have
had sex in the story.
[Sharata]
> When I first read this book, I thought that Pirsig
> must've borrowed
> > Lila/Layla from Persian/Arabic mythology, where
> Lila - The name 'Layla'
> > means 'one who works by night'. source -
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layla_and_Majnun.
> ps: I'm not a native speaker so please pardon my
> English.
[SA currently]
Your English is very good.
thanks.
woods,
SA
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