Heather,
Many thanks for the clarification and quotations.
[SA earlier] -
"This sleeping Lila whom he had just met tonight
was someone else too. Or not someone else exactly, but
someone less specific, less individual. There is Lila,
this single private person who slept beside him now,
who was born and now lived and tossed in her dreams
and will soon enough die and then there is someone
else - call her lila - who is immortal, who inhabits
Lila for a while and then moves on."
[Sharath] -
I see the connection better.Thanks. I might have mis-quoted. I'll recheck
once I get my copy. Unfortunately, due to air travel baggage limitations,
none of my books made the trip. I was just quoting from memory.
[SA continues]
Here is a quote from the 'Lila' link in Hindu
tradition as follows:
<SNIP>
[Sharath]. I'm not really used to the "modern' interpretations of Lila in
the link. I was exposed only to Vaishnavism" and in the very begining of
this webpage Lila is simply defined as "In
Vaishnavism<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaishnavism>,
Lila, more simply refers to the activities of
God<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God>and his devotees.".
[SA asks].-
I read the Kali link, and this was brought up on
this forum before by Marsha. Kali does seem to be
more closely associated with Lilith. I wonder about
the maternal Kali who breasts feeds Shiva on the
battlefield. Pirsig's Lila carried this doll around
for some time, and Phaedrus buried the doll. I don't
see a close association between the doll and Shiva.
Yet, dynamic quality devours all, as Kali does, but
this aspect of dq seems to not be contained within the
skin of Pirsig's Lila for I don't remember Pirsig's
Lila devouring or killing off... now that I think of
it, it does seem she kills Phaedrus' thoughts in the
quote I give above, just as Kali takes the souls of
the battlefield dead away, hmmm, I'm thinking outloud
here. Is Kali though, the aspect of Hindu Lila that
'takes away the dead in the night'? Why does Kali and
Shiva marry? Do you know?
Sharath -
With my limited knowledge and from the stories that I have read and of
course from word-of-mouth, I don't think Shiva ever married Kali directly.
Shiva married Sati, who later is re-born as Parvati;the daughter of the
Himalayan Mountain[Himvat - personification of the Mt King] .And at at
various periods in her life, Parvathi is known to have taken the form of
Durga and Kali and help clean Mother Earth of demons and evil.I must also
add that Parvathi is known as Lalita too, and represents the aspect of
beauty and magnificence. I see a close resemblance to the word "Lilith" here
but somehow they are playing opposite roles.
"Time" or "Kal" in sanskrit, devours everything and "Kali" gets her name
because she devours "Kal"/time. Also quoting from
http://www.ikali.com/kali.html, "Kali's blackness symbolizes her
transcendence of all form, since black represents the total absence of
colour, which signifies the nature of Kali as ultimate reality.". It seems
to me in tune with the Astro-physical concept of a Black-hole devouring
everything including time.
I know in Tantrik practices the exorcising a "doll" is quiet common and is
also used to perform vodoo magic similar to the witch-hunting. But I thought
Pirsig used the symbolism to depict the importance of the burying ritual.
Coming back to your question of Kali and Shiva. Perhaps the quotation from
this stale link would clarify their relationship. I'm pasting this because
I'm not sure whether this below link would work -
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:3_2Zify5Dv0J:philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/hindu/devot/kali.html+Kali+and+Shiva&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
"On the battlefield Durga creates goddesses to help her, including
*Kali*and the Matrikas, the Seven Mothers.
*Kali* is Durga's personified wrath. Or Parvati can take on a fierce form by
transforming herself into *Kali* from the poison stored in *Shiva's* throat.
* Kali* incites *Shiva* to dangerous and destructive behaviour that
threatens the stability of the cosmos, and they dance together so wildly the
world is threatened. *Shiva* traditionally calms * Kali* and defeats her,
though there are few images and myths of *Kali* in a tranquil state. *
Kali*plays an opposite role to Parvati in
*Shiva's* life. She is the goddess who threatens stability and order. *Kali's
* dangerous role in society outside the moral order is increased by her
association with criminals. Not surprisingly, *Kali* plays a central part in
Tantrism, especially the left-hand path, and dominates Tantric iconography,
texts, and rituals.
Unlike mother goddesses who give life, *Kali* takes life. She feeds on death
and must be offered blood sacrifices. * Kali* is the feminine form of the
word kala, time. *Kali* is the energy or power of time. Her blackness
represents the supreme night which swallows all that exists. The emptiness
of space is her only clothing, for when the universe is destroyed the power
of time remains without its veil. Without shakti, expressed as the i in *
Shiva's* name, *Shiva* becomes inert like a "shava"[corpse in Sanskrit],
corpse. *Kali* standing on the inert * Shiva* represents her standing on the
universe in ruins.
*Kali's* terrifying appearance is the symbol of her endless power of
destruction and her laughter an expression of absolute dominion over all
that exists, mocking those who would escape. Her arms are the four
directions of space identified with the complete cycle of time. Four arms
symbolise absolute domination. Her sword is the power of destruction, the
severed head she holds is the fate of all the living, and the garland of
skulls shows the inseparableness of life and death. *Kali* as the power of
time destroys all and embodies all fear. As she alone is beyond fear she can
protect from fear those who invoke her. Thus she has a hand in the removing
fear gesture. The pleasures and joys of the world are ephemeral, and true
happiness exists only in that which is permanent. Only the power of time is
permanent and can give happiness, so *Kali* gives bliss as symbolised by her
giving hand which may offer a bowl of plenty.
By accepting the harsh truths that *Kali* represents, devotees are liberated
from fear of them which people who deny or ignore them must suffer."
Also, do you also see any parallels with the arabian version of Lyla and
Pirsig's Lila ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layla_and_Majnun . I find it
particularly interesting to note that in Turkey the phrase "To feel like
Layla" is used to describe the feeling one gets when one is completely
"out-of-it" and dazed, or, like Majnun, to be *crazily in love* and it kind
of reminds me the effect Pirsig's Lila has on people.
regards,
-Sharath
On Dec 24, 2007 3:11 PM, Heather Perella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> [SA previously]
> > > Two internet sources depict how Lilith or Lila is
> > >understood within the same Indo-European language,
> > >yet, a seeming divergence took place somewhere and
> > >Sanskrit depicts Lila in a more positive light and
> > the 'western' version has Lila in a more negative
> > light. Here are the two links as follows:
> >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila
>
>
> [Sharath]
> > I read them both and just like I suspected before my
> > reading, the "Lila"
> > > link never really associate or suggest any gender
> > for "Lila" and infact is
> > > not an actual person.
>
>
> [SA currently]
> Yes, I see what your saying, and before 'Lila'
> becomes too literal and the metaphor disappears, I'd
> like to point out that 'Lila' in Pirsig's book may not
> be the same Lila from the Hindu tradition. The Hindu
> tradition may see 'Lila' from Pirsig as the same Lila
> of Hindu for the Hindu Lila is everywhere. Is
> Pirsig's 'Lila' everywhere? In the book she is a
> character, but she seems to be also immortal as
> follows Pirsig's Lila chapter one:
>
> "This sleeping Lila whom he had just met tonight
> was someone else too. Or not someone else exactly, but
> someone less specific, less individual. There is Lila,
> this single private person who slept beside him now,
> who was born and now lived and tossed in her dreams
> and will soon enough die and then there is someone
> else - call her lila - who is immortal, who inhabits
> Lila for a while and then moves on."
>
>
> [SA currently continues]
> Here is a quote from the 'Lila' link in Hindu
> tradition as follows:
>
>
> "Brahman is full of all perfections. And to say
> that Brahman has some purpose in creating the world
> will mean that it wants to attain through the process
> of creation something which it has not. And that is
> impossible. Hence, there can be no purpose of Brahman
> in creating the world. The world is a mere spontaneous
> creation of Brahman. It is a Lila, or sport, of
> Brahman. It is created out of Bliss, by Bliss and for
> Bliss. Lila indicates a spontaneous sportive activity
> of Brahman as distinguished from a self-conscious
> volitional effort. The concept of Lila signifies
> freedom as distinguished from necessity."
>
>
> [SA currently continues]
> Lila in Pirsig's book is spontaneous. She
> dances, goes with a stranger (Phaedrus), and goes down
> river, then roams the streets of New York City. When
> Phaedrus tries to ask Lila questions about herself,
> then we get this in the book, Chapter 14, as follows:
>
>
> "A woman's got to be real quiet inside because if
> she shows a man anything they'll try to kill it...
> 'But they all get fooled because there's nothing to
> destroy but what's in their own mind. And so they
> destroy that and then they hate what's left and they
> call what's left, "Lila," and they hate Lila. But Lila
> isn't anybody. That's true. You don't believe it, but
> it's true.
> 'Women are very deep,' Lila said. 'But men never see
> it. They're too selfish. They always want women to
> understand them. And that's all they ever care about.
> That's why they always have to try to destroy them.'
> 'I'm just asking questions,' the Captain said.
> 'Fuck your questions! I'm whatever your questions turn
> me into..."
>
>
> [SA currently]
> What I see in this quote is (1) Lila has a free
> spirit, in other words, is free from "...whatever (the
> Captain) turn(s) (Lila) into..." - thus freedom, and
> (2) Men try to destroy woman and whatever a man is
> left with, after a man destroy's his own thoughts is
> Lila and "they hate Lila". This seems to be Lillith
> who is free and equal, but Adam hated her for this and
> tried to destroy who she was, but Lilith wouldn't have
> anything of it and so left Adam and the Garden and
> from then on the story sees Lilith not as equal with
> Adam but wicked.
> Lila in Pirsig's book is given a gender (female),
> but then Lila is also an immortal lila as quoted
> above. Lila is not who anybody thinks she is, thus,
> Lila is dynamic. Dynamic quality is nonduality, which
> leads my line of thinking into the Hindu Lila. Also,
> from the Hindu Lila link as follows:
>
> "The basic cosmogonic motif of an unfolding or
> flowering cosmos is expressed here specifically in the
> relation of male to female, as well as in terms of
> consciousness and intentionality (in the concept of
> lila as the divine play of male and female)."
>
> [SA currently continues]
> I would say this goes more to the core, maybe, of
> where the Hindu viewpoint and the western viewpoint of
> Lilith/Lila would diverge. Lila is "the divine play
> of male and female" where Lilith and Adam are equal,
> but then fight, this equality and fight, are a 'play'
> between a female and a male.
>
>
>
> [Sharath]
> > I had this strong suspicion because I was born into
> > > fairly orthodox Hindu Bhramin family and having
> > lived 25yrs in a small
> > > temple town in India, it is pretty common to hear
> > references to Lila/Leela
> > > in hindu mythology and no where did I hear
> > something like this. At least for
> > > me, Lila in the Hindu sense is associated with the
> > cosmos and the life force
> > > that exists on this planet. I only know of F
> > Capra[Tao of Physics] who comes
> > > out with a mesh of east-western viewpoint on
> > cosmos/Universe and cites
> > > examples from both eastern texts and western
> > scientific books on quantum
> > > physics to reach the same conclusion. In the Lilth
> > link the text suggests
> > > that Lilith is on par with the Hindu godess Kali.
> > Now that makes much more
> > > sense to me. I would recommend you read wiki
> > pages on Kali and Durga too.
> > > They are pretty acuarate and the pictures are
> > fascinating.
> > >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durga
>
>
> [SA currently]
> I read the Kali link, and this was brought up on
> this forum before by Marsha. Kali does seem to be
> more closely associated with Lilith. I wonder about
> the maternal Kali who breasts feeds Shiva on the
> battlefield. Pirsig's Lila carried this doll around
> for some time, and Phaedrus buried the doll. I don't
> see a close association between the doll and Shiva.
> Yet, dynamic quality devours all, as Kali does, but
> this aspect of dq seems to not be contained within the
> skin of Pirsig's Lila for I don't remember Pirsig's
> Lila devouring or killing off... now that I think of
> it, it does seem she kills Phaedrus' thoughts in the
> quote I give above, just as Kali takes the souls of
> the battlefield dead away, hmmm, I'm thinking outloud
> here. Is Kali though, the aspect of Hindu Lila that
> 'takes away the dead in the night'? Why does Kali and
> Shiva marry? Do you know?
>
>
>
> [Sharata]
> > > Eventhough Wiki has mentioned Pirsig alongside
> > Capra and I believe Pirsig
> > > is one of those philosophers trying to merge
> > eastern mystics with western
> > > thought, I feel his "use" of Lila is more western
> > or arabic in nature than
> > > anything eastern[ from Lila the concept] I've
> > known. I don't know why he
> > > chose the name Lila. I don't remember the chapter,
> > but I definitely remember
> > > reading somewhere on the lines that "Lila had
> > biological quality" if not
> > > anything else..
>
>
> [SA currently]
> I don't remember Pirsig's Lila being "biological
> quality". Here is the quote I know about from
> Pirsig's Lila chapter as follows:
>
> "Do you personally think Miss Lila M. Blewitt is
> a Woman of Quality?'
>
> 'Yes.'"
>
> [SA currently continues]
> Rigel was asking the question and Phaedrus
> answered Rigel, "Yes". Here is it not particular to
> the biological level, but to quality itself.
>
>
> [Sharath]
> > which kind of suggests a depiction
> > of a prostitute to me.
>
> [SA currently]
> Aside from what you may have misquoted, I also
> saw Lila as kin to a prostitute when I first read the
> book. She was with Rigel before, and then ended up
> sleeping with Phaedrus, though, I don't remember if
> Lila and Phaedrus were explicitly explained to have
> had sex in the story.
>
>
> [Sharata]
> > When I first read this book, I thought that Pirsig
> > must've borrowed
> > > Lila/Layla from Persian/Arabic mythology, where
> > Lila - The name 'Layla'
> > > means 'one who works by night'. source -
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layla_and_Majnun .
> > ps: I'm not a native speaker so please pardon my
> > English.
>
>
> [SA currently]
> Your English is very good.
>
>
> thanks.
>
> woods,
> SA
>
>
>
>
>
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--
--Sharath
http://www.linkedin.com/in/sharathkumar
==============================
When I use a word it means just what
I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.
– Humpty Dumpty
==============================
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