Greetings Dwai,
I will try to reply as best I can, but language has its limitations.
At 10:22 PM 1/7/2008, you wrote:
>Greetings Marsha,
>
> >
> > I have finished reading 'Nine Nights with the Taoist Master', by
> > Master Waysun Liao. I have thought about it and tried to find an
> > approach that would illicit understanding. Reading this book has
> > been very helpful. I had read two versions of the Tao Te Ching and
> > did not get a clear understanding of text. I had also read a little
> > bit on the Internet, but still did not understand.
> >
>
>If you do decide to take up a Tai Chi practice and study the Tai Chi
>Classics along-side, things will start making even more sense.
>Master Liao's book is a roadmap to understanding the Tao-te-Ching.
>Even the general translation of this is wrong per Master Liao -- Tao
>Te Ching isn't the "Classic of the Way of Virtue" as is commonly
>understood, but rather the "Classic of the Macrocosm and the
>Microcosm", where Te is a tangible component of the Tao that is
>present within all living beings.
Marsha:
I have no intention of taking up Tai Chi or studying the Tai Chi
Classics. As imperfect as I am, I am following the experiences that
are before me and my own practice.
> > It seems there are 100s of translations of the Tao Te Ching, all
> > different, with different interpretations. Mostly wrong according to
> > Waysun Laio. It seems this is a tradition based on some highly
> > ambiguous text and secret transmissions.
>
>Master Liao did study with a Taoist Monk since the age of 12, in
>Taiwan. I believe his learning is in the classical Eastern Way, Guru-
>Sishya method, via experiential learning -- no book knowledge here.
Marsha:
I am not doubting Master Liao.
> >
> > I think it most reflects the MOQ in that Quality and the Tao are the
> > same. Waysun Liao writes, "... one must work on his mind, life
> > energy (Chi), and engage in the systematic practice that brings a
> > qualitative change to one's mind and body." (p.276) I totally agree
> > with this. And, I've always loved the Yin-Yang symbol, I have it
> > tattooed on my spine at my 2nd chakra. Intuitively it has always
> > seemed perfect.
>
>Hmm...but has that helped you first feel and then move your chi?
Marsha:
Yes, I experience energy. But it doesn't have a neat little explanation.
> >
> > As far as the text goes, I can agree where it points to the Tao being
> > indivisible, undefinable and unknowable. Most of the text, though,
> > is so ambiguous to me that I am not sure what it means. Which, of
> > course, is exactly why Waysun Liao wrote his book. And I am sure it
> > has been helpful to many. It did clear away some of the confusion.
>
>My teacher often tells us that these are seeds that germinate once
>you access them. Then one day, they will grow and start bearing
>fruits...we won't even know when...all good...
Marsha:
Yes, unless you are sidetracked by other opinions.
> >
> > I am a skeptic. I don't much like dogma of any sort (this is a
> > personal attribute). I have had instructions on meditation,
> > pranayama, and Hatha yoga. There are many traditions teaching these
> > techniques, and they all have value. I don't believe there is one
> > true way. I'm far too skeptical for that.
>
>Indeed there is no "one way". But some ways are more effective than
>others....
>The Vedic rishis have stated "Ekam Sat Vipraha Bahuda vadanti" (there
>is one truth that is expressed in different ways by different people).
Marsha:
Yes, and sometimes that expression is beyond words to explain it.
> >
> > I am a feminist. And as a feminist I found the interpretation of the
> > teachings disturbing. I think that this world needs far more Yin
> > energy. It is way out of balance. This text was a man talking to
> > men. You can say it represents something universal, but I don't buy
> > it just because of some general statement that it is implied. I
> > found far more value in the words of Isabel Allende. And could
> > anything survive in this sick culture without the ironic humor of
> > someone like Ms. McKay?
>
>Hmm...Again the piggy-backing of feminism with Yin/Yang? What do you
>have to say about Lao Tzu's conversation with Lo Yin, the Stable
>girl? Is that again a Man talking to other men? I unfortunately don't
>know who Isabel Allende is...but these are truths that can be
>physically verified, and I mean literally, physically verified. Chi
>exists, Te exists, Yin and Yang manifest and can be felt, controlled
>and balanced.
>
>In our Tai Chi practice, we perform something known as Two Person
>Push-hand practice, where we project this Chi (actually called Jing)
>which the partners sense and adapt/flow with/redirect to some
>extremely interesting and intellectual pattern shattering effects..
Marsha:
If I have piggy-backed feminism with Yin/Yang, it is only because I
am trying to conform to a language and a discussion. My experiences
are beyond rational language.
> >
> > So while the practices may have benefit, the teachings are not for
> > me. For me they do not address the Universal Feminine. Not even
> > remotely. To me, it's one-sided and laughable. As Jack Nickolson
> > said in the movie 'Witches of Eastwick', "Good for the man, bad for
> > the woman".
>
>The Tao is the Universe -- there is no feminine/masculine. There is
>the One Chi, the Yin and the Yang and Taiji.
Marsha:
Tao, Quality, just words.
> >
> > Now the thing is, I cannot prove I'm right. But neither can you
> > prove you're right. So why don't we just leave it at:
> >
> > "While sustaining biological and social patterns
> > Kill all intellectual patterns.
> > Kill them completely
> > And then follow Dynamic Quality
> > And morality will be served."
> > (LILA, Chapter 32)
> >
>
>I am of the opinion that MoQ is insufficient and inadequate in having
>anyone follow Dynamic Quality -- there necessarily has to be an
>associated practice that goes beyond "thinking". It would be
>interesting to know if and how anyone in this group has actually
>encountered Dynamic Quality (or whatever one chooses to address it
>as) outside the realm of their imagination.
>
Marsha:
The MoQ is just a very important Western explanation of something
much deeper. I agree that a practice to develop mind and body is
essential. When you used the expression 'outside the realm of their
imagination' you kill the possibilities. How easy it would be to
dismiss what I would have to say with the word 'imagination'. I have
trouble myself not dismissing it as imagination. Working on my own,
it is difficult. Maybe in this case I have surrendered to just
taking it as it comes. I work only with Feminine energy, and I trust it.
>I'm only calling it as I see it -- nothing to get offended about.
Marsha:
Very good.
> > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...
>
>Shoot for the moon in your mind and you won't move even a micro-
>centimeter...imho.... :)
Marsha:
Says you. The limitation 'in your mind' is your words, not mine... :)
I really meant no disrespect to your tradition. I am following my
own. Almost the whole of human experience is defined by men or it is
cast as relative to their definitions. This is part of the
problem. There seems to be no humility in that there may be a
limitation to what men can know. There is a woman's knowledge that
is beyond male understanding. You can, of course, just skip it and
move on what is outside all understanding, but you do it at a great risk.
Marsha
*************
DEFINITION of I, me, self, & etc.: Ever-changing collection of
overlapping, interrelated, inorganic, biological, social and
intellectual, static patterns of value.
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
