Hi DMB, I have no particular reason to call against Krimel, but I agree with what you say.
The two Lila quotes are pretty clear and straightforward. I agree with them. This Pirsig phrase "the language you use and the values you have are the result of thousands of years of cultural evolution." is why I feel comfortable using the "meme" metaphor. Some people accuse that of being a reductionist view. Clearly "our thoughts and experiences can [NOT] be reduced to the functioning of brains", but as we know biological brains (meat) have evolved on a substrate of physical PoV's; mental activities (social, itellectual, cultural participation) have evolved on the substrate of biological PoV's. The patterns and dynamic processes within and across these levels are explanatory, and the fact that each supports the other, need not be seen as reductionist. Amoral scientific objectivity is indeed the enemy. The patterns of value matter, even in science. Ian On 1/8/08, david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Arlo quoted Pirsig in the "Where was Quality before Pirsig?" thread: > "Mental patterns do not originate out of inorganic nature. They originate out > of society, which originates out of biology which originates out of inorganic > nature." (LILA). > > "You may think everything you say and everything you think is just you but > actually the language you use and the values you have are the result of > thousands of years of cultural evolution. It's all in a kind of debris of > pieces that seem unrelated but are actually part of a huge fabric." (LILA) > > dmb says: > Not too long ago I tried to explain the problem with reductionism to Krimel > and I was specifically complaining about the idea that our thoughts and > experiences can be reduced to the functioning of brains. These short and > simple quotes express the alternative view quite nicely. See, reductionism > tries to explain "subjectivity" in terms of "objectivity". It tries to solve > the mind-body problem by saying that mind IS body, that thoughts are a > function of biology and chemistry. This view basically says that the > thousands of years of human evolution is unreal, unimportant and meaningless. > This is what Pirsig calls amoral scientific objectivity and is one the MOQ's > central enemies. This is the view that paints all morals and values and > "merely" subjective. Krimel thinks he's a fan of the MOQ but his view is > directly opposed to it. > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. > http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_012008 > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
