Hi Steve,
Steve
> >> What did you mean by "I place great faith in Beauty."
> > [Platt]
> > That Beauty is a meter of Truth, Rightness and Goodness.
>
> Steve:
> I'm not sure what you mean by "faith" here.
That not just experience of a measurable change indicates Truth (the
scientific method), but that an experience of beauty also may indicate
Truth, Rightness and Goodness. For example, many scientists and
mathematicians reject theories or theorems that are not "beautiful" no
matter other evidence in their favor. Further, DQ is associated with beauty
(aesthetic) that I believe (after Pirsig) indicates Rightness and Goodness.
But none of these avenues to establishing valid values are based on
scientific methods of observation and measurement. Thus, "faith."
> >> Steve:
> >> But all belief is by definition a matter of intellectual quality.
>
>
> > [Platt]
> >
> > I disagree with your belief that "all belief is by definition a
> > matter of
> > intellectual quality." Many beliefs are held in common and thus
> > qualify as
> > social level phenomena.
>
> Steve:
> I see this as a huge misunderstanding of the intellectual level and
> types of patterns of value in general. When a pattern of thought
> becomes prevalent, it doesn't morph into a social pattern. It's still a
> pattern of thought.
Patterns of thought are often social patterns as Pirsig explains: "And, as
anthropologists know so well, what a mind thinks is as dominated by social
patterns as social patterns are dominated by biological patterns and as
biological patterns are dominated by inorganic patterns." (Lila, 12)
> >>> {Platt]
> >>> Does religion make a claim for intellectual quality? I don't think
> >>> so, but
> >>> I could be wrong.
> >>
> >> Steve:
> >> The Catholic Church loves to say that since God is Truth there is no
> >> possibility of conflict between reason and faith.
> >
> > Well, "Truth" is a tough nut to crack, don't you think? Must it be
> > intellectual quality, meaning rational? If so, it runs smack into
> > Godel's
> > Theorem. I believe there is Truth beyond intellectual
> > understanding, for
> > example, a truth that sees the truth of Godel's Theorem -- a meta
> > Truth if
> > you will. Already mentioned is the Truth arrived at by elegance and
> > harmony, an aesthetic Truth.
>
> Steve:
> My point is just that religions do make claims for intellectual
> quality and an example is the Catholic claim that there is no
> conflict between faith and reason.
Religious faith, yes.
> Platt:
> > And how about Truth from revelation? Pirsig
> > says there's a level above intellect where I believe Truth also
> > resides.
>
> Steve:
> There is no level (type of pattern of value) above intellectual. His
> Code of Art is "a code that isn't a code" and certainly isn't to be
> taken as a static level.
Well, that's debatable isn't it?
"Finally there's a fourth Dynamic morality which isn't a code. He supposed
you could call it a "code of Art" or something like that, but art is
usually thought of as such a frill that that title undercuts its
importance. The morality of the brujo in Zuni-that was Dynamic morality."
(Lila, 13).
It's not static, but it's a level called "Dynamic morality" and it's the
most important level of all. It's where revealed Truth, such as that which
motivated the brujo, resides.
Regards,
Platt
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