> Hi Platt, > Steve >>>> What did you mean by "I place great faith in Beauty." > >>> [Platt] >>> That Beauty is a meter of Truth, Rightness and Goodness. >> >> Steve: >> I'm not sure what you mean by "faith" here. > > That not just experience of a measurable change indicates Truth (the > scientific method), but that an experience of beauty also may indicate > Truth, Rightness and Goodness. For example, many scientists and > mathematicians reject theories or theorems that are not "beautiful" no > matter other evidence in their favor.
Steve: Rejecting ideas based on ugliness is much different than believing ideas based on prettiness. Scientific knowledge is subject to revision as new evidence comes in. It is never to be accepted on faith. > >>>> Steve: >>>> But all belief is by definition a matter of intellectual quality. >> >> >>> [Platt] >>> >>> I disagree with your belief that "all belief is by definition a >>> matter of >>> intellectual quality." Many beliefs are held in common and thus >>> qualify as >>> social level phenomena. >> >> Steve: >> I see this as a huge misunderstanding of the intellectual level and >> types of patterns of value in general. When a pattern of thought >> becomes prevalent, it doesn't morph into a social pattern. It's >> still a >> pattern of thought. > Platt: > Patterns of thought are often social patterns as Pirsig explains: > "And, as > anthropologists know so well, what a mind thinks is as dominated by > social > patterns as social patterns are dominated by biological patterns > and as > biological patterns are dominated by inorganic patterns." (Lila, 12) Steve: Pirsig is not saying that some thoughts are social patterns any more than he is saying that some animals are inorganic patterns. He is saying that ALL thoughts are based on social patterns as all social patterns are based on biological patterns and so on. >>>> Steve: >>>> The Catholic Church loves to say that since God is Truth there >>>> is no >>>> possibility of conflict between reason and faith. >>> Platt: >>> Well, "Truth" is a tough nut to crack, don't you think? Must it be >>> intellectual quality, meaning rational? If so, it runs smack into >>> Godel's >>> Theorem. I believe there is Truth beyond intellectual >>> understanding, for >>> example, a truth that sees the truth of Godel's Theorem -- a meta >>> Truth if >>> you will. Already mentioned is the Truth arrived at by elegance and >>> harmony, an aesthetic Truth. >> >> Steve: >> My point is just that religions do make claims for intellectual >> quality and an example is the Catholic claim that there is no >> conflict between faith and reason. > Platt: > Religious faith, yes. Steve: I've only ever been talking about dogmatic faith, not trust or loyalty or having a positive attitude. I'm just talking about someone believing things about religion without subjecting these beliefs to the same standards that that person would use for every other kind of belief he may hold. >> Platt: >>> And how about Truth from revelation? Pirsig >>> says there's a level above intellect where I believe Truth also >>> resides. >> >> Steve: >> There is no level (type of pattern of value) above intellectual. His >> Code of Art is "a code that isn't a code" and certainly isn't to be >> taken as a static level. Platt: > Well, that's debatable isn't it? It is if you can find one instance where Pirsig ever referred to Art as a level. RMP: > "Finally there's a fourth Dynamic morality which isn't a code. He > supposed > you could call it a "code of Art" or something like that, but art is > usually thought of as such a frill that that title undercuts its > importance. The morality of the brujo in Zuni-that was Dynamic > morality." > (Lila, 13). Platt: > It's not static, but it's a level called "Dynamic morality" and > it's the > most important level of all. It's where revealed Truth, such as > that which > motivated the brujo, resides. Steve: Where does he say "it's a level"? He is talking about DQ (experience) which reveals truth and motivated the brujo. Regards, Steve Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
