Arlo, Chis, All!
Chris originally:
> Individuality is mostly a thing created by the 4th. Level
Arlo:
> To be precises, I've already said I consider the "self-as-concept" to
> be an intellectual pattern. My main concern here has been articulating
> the process by which this intellectual pattern appears.
Chris:
> And this is why I find the whole "lone individual" stuff nonsense, and
> the idea that "man" is some ridiculous solitary agent out their freely
> intellecting until big bad society comes along and enslaves him. Are
> there particular social patterns (as politics or nation-states or
> religions) that have, historically, bound man? Sure. But it is
> social-participation from which intellect arises. Rail against
> repressive social patterns that immorally suppress intellectual
> patterns, but do not mistake the MOQ for a metaphysics that sees
> sociality as repressive, far from it, it considers it to be the
> foundational from which intellect emerges.
Bo butts in:
I agree with Chris, but suspect Arlo's "agreement" ("individuality's
is mostly a thing created by the 4th. level") to be from different
premises than Chris' who, I believe, speaks from the S/O -
definition of the 4th. level and sees the free individual mind - only
hampered by social bigotry - is a 4th. level FALLOUT, not the
level itself. While Arlo sees humankind's ability to think as the
4th. level and the subject/object distinction a later (fallout)
pattern. Note that he calls the individual self a concept, his
intellect is "mind" and consequently everything are concepts -
ideas.
> [Chris]
> I agree that the intellectual level is based upon the social level, as
> do any MOQist worth his/her name, and so your statement that "it is
> social-participation from which intellect arises." I can agree on, but
> - only in the sense that it was the social level that provided that
> basis on which a thinking of subjects and objects could be developed.
Hear, hear!
Chris ctd.
> Would you please back up this: "Pirsig makes it clear that this
> "self-as-concept" [.] originates out of the social level." ? Because I
> cannot fully agree on this view.
In LILA Pirsig is very vague regarding the 4th. level so there may
be passages that backs up Arlo's, but as many backs the S/O-
intellect, and only the latter makes any sense of the MOQ. Arlo's
"thinking" 4th.level and its concept patterns makes it a subjective
(idealist) SOM. All is mind, all is intellectual patterns.
IMNSHO
(in my not so humble opinion)
Bo
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