Arlo 18 February you wrote:.
Bo had said: > Arlo's "thinking" 4th.level and its concept patterns makes it a > subjective (idealist) SOM. All is mind, all is intellectual patterns. Arlo commented: > I'm confused, Bo. Are you suggesting that the intellectual level is > comprised of something other than ideas? Can you give me an example of > an intellectual pattern that is NOT an idea, or a concept? How to go about this question "without having to resolve a metaphysical dispute at the end of each sentence"? Reality seen from INSIDE the 4th. level is split along the S/O "fault". Common people don't give a damn, but if you are a philosophical idealist all is ideas (matter an idea too). If you are a materialist all is matter, ideas a by-product of matter (mind from brain). This inconsistency, one part claiming that the other is a by-product of itself is the source of SOM's mind-matter paradox. At first glance an example of "an non-idea intellectual pattern" would be the materialist's claim, but I guess you will spot the fault even this is an idea, so from inside intellect there seemingly are only ideas or concepts. Yet, the S/O won't go away that easy, mind is dependent on matter even if matter is mind, and matter is dependent on mind even if it's a matter by-product. This may look as sophistry, but it's the very base of the MOQ that began as a SOM "pattern", that is Phaedrus taking the S/O split for granted and contemplated very seriously the two dilemma horns (in ZAMM) OK, not to repeat the whole procedure he rejected both and turned everything upside-down by claiming that SOM is a Quality creation. And by and by he arrived at the first proto-moq in ZAMM where Intellect is the subject/object divide. And it's this original MOQ where intellect=SOM I "peddle" and here each and every 4th. level pattern is a S/O-configuration in one or other form, neither idea nor what-ideas-are-about, neither concepts nor what-concepts-are-about, but - as said - always a S/O-configuration and they are legion. Arlo ctd: > We may disagree on the foundational point of the fourth level, for me > its (tentatively) metacognition while for you its subject-object > differentiation, but I don't see how this makes "my" intellectual > level "idealist" and yours "something else". Well as follows from the above all intellectual patterns are one or other form of the subject/object configuration. Metacognition/ usual cognition is an unusual form, but nevertheless as good as any. > Do you think that I am denying the lower levels? Well if (your) intellectual patterns are ideas and (your) MOQ is an intellectual pattern everything seem to be ideas. If this is denial depends on you being an SOM idealist or materialist. IMO Bo Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
