Hello Arlo [Chris] Individuality is mostly a thing created by the 4th. Level
[Arlo] To be precises, I've already said I consider the "self-as-concept" to be an intellectual pattern. My main concern here has been articulating the process by which this intellectual pattern appears. And this is why I find the whole "lone individual" stuff nonsense, and the idea that "man" is some ridiculous solitary agent out their freely intellecting until big bad society comes along and enslaves him. Are there particular social patterns (as politics or nation-states or religions) that have, historically, bound man? Sure. But it is social-participation from which intellect arises. Rail against repressive social patterns that immorally suppress intellectual patterns, but do not mistake the MOQ for a metaphysics that sees sociality as repressive, far from it, it considers it to be the foundational from which intellect emerges. [Chris] I agree that the intellectual level is based upon the social level, as do any MOQist worth his/her name, and so your statement that "it is social-participation from which intellect arises." I can agree on, but - only in the sense that it was the social level that provided that basis on which a thinking of subjects and objects could be developed. Would you please back up this: "Pirsig makes it clear that this "self-as-concept" [.] originates out of the social level." ? Because I cannot fully agree on this view. The separate self I hold is something that developed simultaneously as the SOM (4the level) grew in power, and it is the idea of the subject as separate from the objects surrounding him/her that is the real problem. Furthermore this has become institutionalized and has formed social patterns to fit itself, most notably in America, so, the American (and other places as well) communism-phobia is not something motivated by rationality, it is the social level acting, formed as it was by the rising 4th level to it's present overly-static condition. Well, IMO Regards Chris Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
