[Chris]
I agree that the intellectual level is based upon the social level, as do any
MOQist worth his/her name, and so your statement that "it is
social-participation from which intellect arises." I can agree on, but - only
in the sense that it was the social level that provided that basis on which a
thinking of subjects and objects could be developed.
[Arlo]
You seem to lean towards Bo's idea that the intellectual level is the S/O
level. I don't really think this, and this may be the source of confusion here,
because in what you say above, I agree.
I've said recently that, in my current line of thinking, "intellect" emerged
from the point where people started thinking about their symbols as
entities-in-themselves. This metacognition, if you will, seems to me to be the
breaking point between the shared experiences of the social level and the
emergent properties of intellect.
[Chris]
Would you please back up this: "Pirsig makes it clear that this
"self-as-concept" [.] originates out of the social level." ? Because I cannot
fully agree on this view.
[Arlo]
Here I was simply extrapolating a common understanding of "mind" from Pirsig's
statment, "mind originates out of the social level". In doing so I considered
his statements that the "me" we experience is a "collection of ideas", not a
primary reality of its own. This puts the "self" ("me") as (what I call) a
semiotic-reference point that emerges from the social level, tied inherently to
the fact that we have both a shared appropriation of the collective experience
of our social world AND the unique, bounded experiences as an bounded organisms.
[Chris]
The separate self I hold is something that developed simultaneously as the SOM
(4the level) grew in power...
[Arlo]
Yeah, I dont see the 4th level as SOM, Chris. And I can tell you from
experience that this right here will underscore our conversation on this topic.
In other words, we are talking from different assumptions about the MOQ.
[Chris]
and it is the idea of the subject as separate from the objects surrounding
him/her that is the real problem.
[Arlo]
I agree.
[Chris]
Furthermore this has become institutionalized and has formed social patterns
to fit itself, most notably in America, so, the American (and other places as
well) communism-phobia is not something motivated by rationality, it is the
social level acting, formed as it was by the rising 4th level to it's present
overly-static condition.
[Arlo]
Well, I don't outright disagree with anything here either.
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