Hi Bo, Steve: >> Which came first? Subjects and objects or SOM? > >> Bo proposes that intellect originates with a distinction between >> symbol and what is symbolized. I agree that such a distinction is >> important and is presupposed in most intellectual patterns, but is >> this all we mean by SOM? >> SOM is a metaphysics that says that subjects and objects is all that >> reality really is.... >
Bo: > SOM isn't just the platitudinous "subjects and objects", but the > countless varieties of subjectivity in contrast to objectivity. Steve: I agree that subjectivity in contrast to objectivity and considering values as less than objective is what SOM is about. Steve: > ... Thinking in terms of subjects and objects must naturally precede >> such philosophizing about the nature of reality. > Bo: > Thinking as different from what thinking is about a is part of > SOM. Steve: Here is where we part company. I don't think that Pirsig is railing against SOM because of it's distinction between symbol and what is symbolized. I don't think he wants to get rid of this distinction at all. Steve: >> In other words, S/O thinking is not the same as S/O metaphysics (SOM). > Bo: > This is the intelligence=intellect fallacy. Steve: I don't think there is a fallacy in saying that people can make distinctions between subjects and objects and intellectual patterns and inorganic patterns without committing to SO Metaphysics. We can even talk about subjectivity and objectivity as Pirsig does in SODV without making the distinction fundamental to reality thanks to the MOQ context of value pattern levels. Bo: ... Intellect did the same trick as all > static levels, namely regard everything as own value and now the > said "manipulation of experience" became THINKING different > from the objects (of thinking) and the honorable Steve Peterson > is now absolutely sure that .....S/O thinking is not the same as > S/O metaphysics (SOM) ... and it isn't at the SOM, but the MOQ > isn't SOM, nor is it an intellectual pattern. INTELLECT IS A MOQ > PATTERN! Steve: In the MOQ intellect is a type of pattern of value and the MOQ itself is an intellectual pattern. There is no such thing as an MOQ pattern. In other words, I don't know what you are getting at. Regards, Steve Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
