DM: My point is that looking for patterns is to value looking for patterns, and you need an idea about the patterns that interest you.
[Krimel] This is nitpicky but human beings are hardwired to look for patterns. Show us two dots and we see a line show us three and we see a triangle... DM: Scientists are always motivated and are looking for certain results, admitting whether you have found them or not is about honesty not about what you think or value as ain't gonna look unless you are looking for something. [Krimel] Like any human endeavor they are looking in the context of what has gone before within their discipline. But they look by attempting to "prove" that what they are looking for isn't there. While their values and preconceptions may shape what they do, the possibility of being forced to change those values is central to the enterprise. DM: the fault is not having an interest or values or assumptions, the fault Is pretending you are operating from an impossible value free or god-like and non-human position. Hope that clarifies. [Krimel] It was not unclear to begin with. I just don't think this is an indictment of science so much as perhaps some scientists. That said the MindWalk movie makes a couple of interesting points along these lines. First is that in many disciplines of science, ethics is not among the required courses. Certainly ethics courses are being required in most medical programs and in some business schools (where one could argue the problem is much worse) but certainly more could and should be done. Second the point is made that much research is done at the behest those funding the research and that about 70% of research funding comes from the military. In an era where lots of money is required to do basic research tragically that other Golden Rule applies and scientists may be forced to look for what they are paid to look for. [Jorge] The following are quotes from Krimel's digest of March 9th [Krimel] Odd, I didn't know I had a digest in fact I was given to believe that I am hard to digest. Jorge: I very much agree with Krimel when he says that the scientific view is not so much "value free" as "regardless of value". This is not merely playing with words but an important distinction; if we could all agree on it quite a number of pointless discussions would be avoided. [Krimel] As you can see agreement on even this is hard to come by. David and I have long tended to focus on the fine points here to make absolutely sure we each note the degrees of distinction to be made. [Jorge] This being "regardless of value" or "unconcerned with value" pertains of course to scientists in-Science and not as individuals immersed in their societies. This is exemplified by the large body of writings of scientists writing 'ex-catedra' on value- loaded subjects like Religion, Ethics, the Purpose of Life, etc. etc. a concern that continued uninterrupted from Newton to Einstein down to illustrious contemporary scientists. [Krimel] Even I would want to distinguish between "regardless of" and "unconcerned with". But that said, I would argue that from Newton onward and certainly in the present era scientist have made much more important contributions to philosophy that the other way around. You mention Einstein who wrote extensively on the ethical and political implications of his work. I would add mathematicians Russell and Whitehead, E.O. Wilson, Dawkins and Gould from biology, Skinner and Pinker from psychology and ... well both of you can probably make your own list. [Jorge] Said literature clearly indicates that being "thoroughly exposed" to Science does not negatively influence scientists making them unconcerned with values. Why then Science exert a negative influence in this respect to Society at large? [Krimel] I think the problem results from the speed at which science has been transforming our worldviews. We are just not designed to handle so much change so quickly. If we regard Pirsig's levels as pointing to rates of change, the speed of change at the 'intellectual' level is outstripping our ability to change with it. This scares people; myself included. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
