Matt primarily, but Krimel mentioned. 6 April:
> Matt: > Ah! Finally, a strictly philosophical topic. What is an idea if not > words? I think the idea that ideas are pre-linguistic is a remnant of > SOM. But I'm not sure I have the ingenuity to go from here in a > convincing manner. Strictly seen words (language) has no place in the MOQ, but when/if we stoop to the intellectual level it's part of its static S/O pattern: words/what they convey. The same goes for "ideas" which sounds like the general content of (our) mind, but are verbalized thoughts as different from what they are about. However, it was your "...I think the idea that ideas are pre-linguistic is a remnant of SOM ..." that caught my attention. As strictly seen IDEAS themselves was the beginning of SOM (Plato's dichotomy: ideas/appearance) but as SOM (as the intellectual level) evolved it projected its value upon all existence (like all levels do) and saw ideas or thoughts (as different from reality) having been with humankind since it became aware (got a mind). For instance that Stone Age humankind sat round the camp-fire discussing "ideas", or that even pre-linguist "homo habilis" must have known the subject/object distinction. IMO ancient people were as intelligent as ourselves yet from an age (the social level) that hadn't arrived at intellect's S/O distinction. Words weren't symbols, ideas weren't mental reflections of reality, but - f.ex. - gods' voices. Dreams weren't figments of mind, but visitations from ancestors, previews of the future ...whatever. The same goes for the biological level, even more so, where retrieval of experience (memory) and manipulation thereof, don't require any "explanation" at all. The point is that only with the intellectual level did thoughts or ideas (as something mental - in a mind) arrive on the scene. I remember you scoffing at my presentation of how the faulty 4th. level have stalled the MOQ and that only the above SOL interpretation can bring it out of that quagmire. Your newfangled realization of ".. ideas as (remnants) of SOM" may show that we aren't so far apart? Krimel > What are words if not symbols for ideas? I am not at all sure how the > notion of pre-linguistic or even a-linguistic ideation is a remnant of > SOM. ...sounds like one firmly lodged in intellect's S/O and I don't think he has what takes to lift himself by hair or bootstraps out of it and on to the MOQ Bo. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
