[Ham] First of all, knowledge is based on experience, which has nothing to do with
"culture". [Krimel] The moment, location and circumstances under which we enter and exist the womb are cultural experiences. Who raises us and how, are determined by culture. Where we go to the bathroom and how we seek gratification are cultural experiences. Knowledge is synthesized from experience and culture not only shapes experience, it provides context for the synthesis. [Ham] Practical knowledge is usually the result of factual information that has been proven to work when applied to situations under controlled conditions. For example, if we remove half of the eggs from a full dozen carton, we will have six eggs left in the carton. Such knowledge is generally accepted as a "truth", rather than an "assumption". [Krimel] What culture-free practical knowledge can be derived from your example? Your quantitative units: dozen, half dozen, 6 are known only through shared cultural agreement. Carton, eggs, counting, subtracting come from and are understood in their cultural context. No, Ham, practical knowledge IS cultural knowledge. [Arlo had quoted Pirsig]: "Our intellectual description of nature is always culturally derived". (LILA) [Ham] Arlo then went on to assert that "knowledge rests on assumptions". It's a pretty safe assumption that half a dozen equals six, or that a raw egg dropped to the floor will break. But describing the mess on the floor as "scrambled eggs" or some other analogy is neither knowledge nor truth. It's an analogy, perhaps "culturally derived", or simply imaginative. [Krimel] Your understanding of dozens rests on cultural assumptions about eggs and donuts. It depends on a culture that deems eggs worthy of packaging. You assume a culture that eats and scrambles eggs. Your narrative hangs on these assumptions. You raise them up as examples because they are so commonly known to you and yours that you "assume" they are universally understood. I don't know but I suspect eggs maybe packaged differently in Asia and your example may not be understood at all. [Ham] Inserting "quality" into this argument doesn't win any brownie points. It's just a euphemistic way of saying that some knowledge is true. [Krimel] Actually, all that's being said is that "some knowledge is true enough." Quality can be seen from different points of view through different assumption and if we are wise we can triangulate on the Quality of our desire. [Ham] And this distortion of Descartes Cogito is laughable: > "If Descartes had said, "The seventeenth century > French culture exists, therefore I think, therefore I am," > he would have been correct." (LILA) Here's a prime example of what I meant by radical empiricists "explaining away" the individual. Descartes couldn't think, let alone exist, if it were not for the culture of 17th Century France! [Krimel] I agree to the extent that Pirsig's complaint is not at the core of the cogito but a step removed. Descartes gives us assurance that we exist. He offers little clarity on what existence is or what gives rise to it. Most of the problems arising from the cogito, concern this kind of secondary question. [Ham] Apparently our 21st Century American culture has done away with individuals entirely. Platt and I are not subjects; we are merely patterns of society. [Krimel] At least you are starting to notice. We are all points on someone's graph, our opinions, power consumption, our spending habits, our viewing habits all of our habits are collected, analyzed and plans are being made to target you and Platt as individuals to sing and dance to someone else's tune and hopefully to get you to pay for the privilege. Even encouraging rugged individualism helps someone learn what commodities rugged individuals are attracted to. No society "does away" with individuals but different societies expect different things from individuals and visa versa. Our social roles are complex and varied. We are the sum of them. To the extent that we reject our cultural roles we are excommunicated from communion with others. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
